The Historical Basis for Catalonian Independence

[Gucumatz]

Even more Brilliant!!!

Lets start funding for this on kickstarter

 

[Angst]

1. Federalism destroys national unity
2. Federalism produces bureaucratic nightmares, regardless of corruption
3. Federalism does not always happen when a nation expands
4. Federalism leaves the central government weak and unable to dictate policy

Those are my experiences with federalism. Bosnia has federalism, it is the states tumor.

National unity is a nonsensual construct that is constantly revived, and the Balkans have already suffered greatly from that nonsense.

You still fail to define exactly how federalism produces bureaucratic nightmares, probably because you fail to define what federalism actually means in your optic.

And as from what I've read and seen, federalism is just a higher level of administration in a decentralized manner, and honestly, if anything, not inherently good or bad, but just an alternately decentralized central-upper unit to a state.

 

[JohannaK]

True. I would like to point out that federalism isnt working well here, actually. Competence transfers are parcial and unclear, to the point where some attributions are simultaneously ruled from both the regional and the Central Government. Such is the case with Education, in which the regional Governments arrange the classes and curriculum and everything, but the Central Government issues certain directives that must be followed.

That recently led to much discontent here due to restrictions in the teaching of Catalan which go against our much successful bilingual model of education.

 

[History_Buff]

But it certainly defines a difference. On top of the fact that Catalonia and Valencia have centuries of common history as parts of the Crown of Aragon prior to the PU with Castille, which was the one and only part of the Kingdom of Castille until then.

I know it's from two pages back, but I don't see how you can make an argument about the centuries of commonality before the union, and then completely ignore the much longer period they've been united together as part of Spain.

 

[Angst]

So you say there is tension between central directives and regional administration and interests?

We have that same issue in Denmark, and we're not a "federation".

 

[JohannaK]

Spain is actually a single country since 1716. There were two common centuries before PU, 2 and a half in a PU which for the most part meant nothing different than before, and then there have been 3 centuries in Spain. And I think that Valencia and Aragon and the Baleares still had to have something strongly common with Catalonia to rise together for the Austrian candidate in the War of Spanish Succession.

EDIT: yes, lj, but due to the central government interfering in fields the ruling over which was ceded to the regions and because attempts at recentralisation.

 

[Arakhor]

But it certainly defines a difference. On top of the fact that Catalonia and Valencia have centuries of common history as parts of the Crown of Aragon prior to the PU with Castille, which was the one and only part of the Kingdom of Castille until then.

Whilst we're on that subject, I'm sure Castille and Leon were in personal union long before Ferdinand and Isabella.

 

[Angst]

Spain is actually a single country since 1716. There were two common centuries before PU, 2 and a half in a PU which for the most part meant nothing different than before, and then there have been 3 centuries in Spain. And I think that Valencia and Aragon and the Baleares still had to have something strongly common with Catalonia to rise together for the Austrian candidate in the War of Spanish Succession.

Uh, I know that. I was getting at the issue with "federalism", whatever that means.

EDIT: Oh. This wasn't for me, was it?

I'll just hide now.

 

[JohannaK]

Whilst we're on that subject, I'm sure Castille and Leon were in personal union long before Ferdinand and Isabella.

Surely, but you must also understand the radical differences in the political organisation of these Kingdoms. In Castille and Leon, the King was the most powerful figure, with the medieval parliament being a merely consultory organism without real saying in anything (edit: Which Efectively Meant That They Were One And The Same Country), whereas in the territories of the Crown of Aragon the king had to seek for the approval of his policies by the regional Parliaments, which granted these territories extensive rights and liberties not enjoyed in Castile and which encouraged this naturally federalist approach (edit: This Could Be Seen In The Council Of Caspe, Where 3 Representatives From Catalonia, 3 From Valencia And 3 From Aragon Reunited To Choose A Successor To The Heirless King Martin, Called The Human).

Thus, people's mentalities were wildly different in Valencia than in Asturias, and much closer to a Catalan mentality in any case.

Uh, I know that. I was getting at the issue with "federalism", whatever that means.

EDIT: Oh. This wasn't for me, was it?

I'll just hide now.

I Edited in a response to you.

 

[Angst]

EDIT: yes, lj, but due to the central government interfering in fields the ruling over which was ceded to the regions and because attempts at recentralisation.

I don't get the sentence. Are you saying the attempts are attempts at centralization?

If so, yeah, still the same thing in Denmark.

 

[Tee Kay]

Bosnia

There's your problem.

 

[History_Buff]

Thus, people's mentalities were wildly different in Valencia than in Asturias, and much closer to a Catalan mentality in any case.

And your argument is that over the course of nearly 300 years (more if you count time in the union), these differences are still the same?

 

[JohannaK]

No.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

There's your problem.

You have offended my nationalism.

 

[History_Buff]

No.

Then why talk about the centuries before the union like it's some big thing?

 

[JohannaK]

We are talking about Valencia and Baleares here, right? Because if we are talking about Catalonia again, the previous post said Yes.

 

[Leoreth]

Those are my experiences with federalism. Bosnia has federalism, it is the states tumor.

With all due respect, but I don't think Bosnia is a good example to judge federalism.

 

[F4llschirmjager]

Cry for independence? Fight for it.

There' r only 2 countries in Iberian Peninsula Portugal and Spain. Otherwise the Europe map would be unbalanced!

I love this Spanish football club very much it's called Barcelona FC. The greatest Spanish football club yay. Barcelona = Spanish

Yay

 

[Lord Baal]

That lack of balance is why Turkey and Austria should take over the Balkans, and Russia and Germany should partition all the nations in between them.

 

[Angst]

You have offended my nationalism.

How can one offend a nationalism?

And... the point was most probably that it was the recent history (and consequential forms of institutions) of Bosnia that cause errs rather than the abstract conceptualization of "a federation". Basically, the issue with a Bosnian federation is Bosnia much like the working element of a German federation might actually be Germany. I mean even self-proclaimed nationalists should have this perspective and basically state that it doesn't have anything to do with the Bosnian race/spirit and more that it had everything to do with recent historical movements, political, economical and social.