The Ideal Civilization Game (well imo)

qiangdade

Chieftain
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May 31, 2010
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Hello there, this is my first post, though i often visited the site for updates, scenarios etc. I am not quite sure if i was supposed to post this here. If not just move it and/or direct me to the correct location please:)

I have posted this vision of my ideal civ game in the 2k games website forum and in other forums with very positive feedback. Most of you i expect not to bother to read through as it is quite long. If you are too bored just read the timeline text as it is meant to be a story at the same time rather than just facts or suggestions. I know it is too late for most of those features to be implemented in civ5, but i am just hoping that one day there will be such a game.

SUGGESTED FEATURES IN CATEGORIES


Resources

-Central managing of resources rather than per city. Then distributed as needed.

-Prospecting. Use gold or a unit to prospect tiles for minerals, fishing grounds and ideal crop planting. Prosepcting should become more advanced by techs obtained. You won't get the same results if you prospect a tile in 1000bc and in 2000ad

-Minerals are depletable. Upon prospecting there is a limited amount to be obtained from a resource in a tile. Say you prospect a hill in 500bc and find 1000 units of iron. That hill can only produce 1000 units of iron and then it is depleted. Unless time goes by, you prospect again and you find more iron on the tile.

-As tile improvements are upgradable you will get more of a resource on a tile per turn with improvements of a higher level. A level 1 mine may yield 2 units of the resource per turn, while a level 3 may yield 5.

-More types of resources (opals, hardwood, oilfish, bees (honey), olives, fruit, potato, hard stone, salt, millet, buckwheat, beans, tin, pigments, etc).

-Plantable or acquirable resources. Like in civ 4 if you play earth map in the Americas you never have horses. Would it be so difficult to actually breed horses there after acquiring some after contact with a civ that had access to horses??

-Many raw resources can be used by industries to produce more elaborate and effective goods. For example build a jewelry in a city and you'll be able to use gems or silver or gold to make jewelry which makes people happier and brings in more income in the international market (wax, jewels, candles, paper, lamp oil, glue, ink, artwork, jewelry, steel, bronze, etc.)

-Of course many resources lie in the sea. Fishing, oil, crab etc. Prospecting will be needed there as well

-More ocean based resources

-Ocean depth: Ocean has various depth levels (say 1-5). Each level has advantages and disadvantages. Level 1 depth can be landfilled and used as grassland. Levels 1+2 can be connected with a tunnel or bridge. Oil can be found if prospected in levels 3+4 as well as better fishing results. Levels 3-5 cannot be landfilled or connected with bridges or tunnels. Level 5 provides faster sea travel, bonuses for submarines and even better fishing results.

Goal: All this should make it more meaningful to acquire as many resources as possible as you get extra bonuses for acquiring more resources (depletable resources) and you won't be able to rely on a single source of oil to fuel your empire through eternity.

Production

-Central gathering of resources and not every city for itself. There are other ways to compensate for growth and production of cities

-Many types of resources that are piled up in meters. Forests produce wood, mines minerals-marble-stone, farms-food, luxuries-other resources. Hammers are obsolete. buildings need raw materials to be built and gold. Buildings (or corporations) may use raw materials to produce more elaborate commodities like in "colonization". To build the Pyramids for example you will need say 100 stone and 100 gold. A mountain with stone resource and a mine on it may produse say 5 stone per turn. Gold may come from gold mines and trade. That way the number of resources controlled have a significant role in the game. You can't run an empire with a single unlimited source of say oil. If more than one cities need the same resource for their production per turn, it is shaed ecqually unless set otherwise by an option.. If you have all the raw materials needed to buils a building or a unit, it will be built in a single turn.

-Cities can build multiple improvements/units per turn. It all depends on resource availability.

-Energy producing factories produce energy in say megawatts. depending on location and type some produce more and some less.

-upgradeable city improvements

City Growth

-No more city radius. All tiles within the cultural borders (in the beginning) and the de jure borders (later in the game) can be used regardless distance from a city. As if a civ in reality would not use fields to grow crops if they were to far from a city...

-No more growth through food storage. Growth of a city depends on various factors that form a growth meter. Factors: labor, health, attractivity etc
Labor: If a city can offer jobs to more people that currently reside there, that amount is added to the meter. Openning industries, marketplaces, supermarkets etc, create labor points. Accordingly, unemployment puts a negative value on the meter and causes people to leave. A city could be offering less jobs than needed to its population, yet continue to grow, cause growth is dependant on other factors too. Unemployment leads to unhappiness and crime though, which put negative effect to the growth meter. Losing a resource type could cause an industry or business to go unproductive amd its workers being fired. The shutting down of a business reduces labor factor.
Health: Buildings, access to resources and commodities, surrounding tiles all have positive or negative effect on the health meter and subsequently on the growth meter.
Attractivity: City size, wonders placed in the city, buildings, parks, public transport, labor culture all create positive or negative attractivity points and have an effect on the growth meter.

-The citizens that are featured in all civ versions and can be asigned to work tiles or function as specialists still exist, but they do not work tiles anymore, as there is no city radius. Instead they are used to work an industry. One citizen per industry. Example: a citizen is asigned to work in a weavery and produce clothes or in a forge to produce swords. Citizens (and subsequently city size index) number is dependant on actuall population (i.e. 10k pop= 1 citizen, 20k= 2 citizens, 40k = 3 citizens etc)

-No workers anymore: the construction of a tile improvement is asigned by clicking on a tile and chosing the option "build farm" or "build road" or "build mine" etc. Every tile improvement has a cost, say 10 gold and 10 stone for a road or 10 gold and 10 wood for a lumber hut. Time of construction depends on reserves of the needed resources. If all are forehanded, completion is instant. If not more turns may be needed.

City Improvements

-Upgradeable city improvements through a number of levels.

-Industries for all scientific eras. Weaveries use silk, wool or cotton to make cloths, forges use iron, bronze to make swords, shields etc. Processed goods can be sold at a higher price in the international market (upon demand) and can also be used to produce other stuff like more elaborate processed goods or military units. (through ammunition, swords, shields, steel, bombs etc.)

-You can only build as many industries as citizen number or forhanded resources allow. If your city has 10 citizens, you can build up to 10 industries. If city population then drops and you have less citizens, the already build become inactive. You can't build a jewelry if you have no access to gold, silver etc.

Tile Improvements

-Upgradeable tile improvements that offer a bigger per-turn yield, the higher the level (resources and appropriate tech needed to upgrade)

-Bridges and tunnels that connect landmasses (available only on water tiles of 1-2 level depth)

-Watchtowers

-Walls (like Hadrian's wall)

-Barb wire (for example to increase the chance of capturing a spy, attempting to sabotage a coal plant)

-Mine fields (both on water and land)

-Water mills, hydro plants, damms, solar panel complexes

-Energy producing plants (coal, nuclear) can be built as a city improvement aswell as a tile improvement

-Canals (Suez, Panama) or even smaller that connect rivers. Large canals bring in cash when other-civ ships pass through. (also see Map section)

-Navigable rivers (also Map section)

-As in RoM more types of roads (paths, roads, paved roads, highways). Accordingly more types of railways (steam, electric, magnetic...)

Money

-Energy trading. Energy is why most modern wars happen so it should be implememnted somehow. A raw idea: Each civ, depending on size, population, tech era, buildings etc has a value of energy amount needed per turn to run smoothly. Depending on the resources (oil, gas, coal etc) and buildings each civ has, it produces some amount of energy per turn. If the civ can't cover its needs for energy, some buildings may become inactive and people unhappy. The civ could of course trade for more resources, or could even close deals to directly buy energy from civs with surplus, via pipes (much like modern Russia).

-Deals to "rent" foreign tiles and take advantage of the resource on it for limited time depending on the deal (like in imperialsim).

-Deals to prospect on foreign tiles for buying or renting the tile.

-More corporations taking advantage of more types of resources performing more tasks. Corporations could take raw materials to create more complex ones and sell them. According to techs and era people may need more commodities, for more happiness or health.

-Selling and buying of weapons. Weapon industries are built as a city improvement and units produced can be sold to other civs. Of course both the industries and the weapons are very expensive.

-Tourism. Older buildings, like arenas, cathedrals, wonders etc bring in money. There should also be relics as a resource that allows an archaeological site improvement that yields a lot of money (like in RoM)

-Trade market. every civ puts their tradeable items on a global market page and all that are interested may place their bids. computer sets the price. Deals about energy resources may be set individually.

- Loans. Loan money to other civs with interest and the opposite. Very important!

-Overseas colonies have great maintenance cost and if not treated properly they may want to seek independence. Of course they can be left free as vassals. Colonies that are still under mother-country control after the discovery of a specific tech have no independence thought or higher maintenance any more: Example: French Cayenne, Gibraltar, Fawklands etc

- Bigger bonuses for naval blockades/City sieges.

-Introduction of slaves and rebellion from slaves and their units.

-International events such as the Olympic Games. Host city decided by Olympic Comitee team project and brings in a lot of money.

-Three-way (or more) deals for diplomacy or trade ( especially energy trading as described in the timeline).

Scientific Progress

-Technological advancement doesn't come from research/money, but from buildings and actions. Each building/unit/action bares values of various research path categories, like military, culture, economy etc (see timeline text). Each tech has values which when reached it becomes available. Military science i.e. would have 1000 military research points value and 500 culture. A barracks gives say 10 points, an archer 2 points, a temple gives 5 culture points, a war 50 etc. When the appropriate number is reached the tech becomes available ( very much like the Founding Fathers feature in Colonization). That could even lead to multiple technologies to become available at the same time. Afterall most of the technological advancement did not come from guys that were sponsored to sit in a lab/library and do research, but from experience through everyday needs.

- More technologies with passive bonuses. Ex. "Guerrilla Tactics" tech gives all melee units +10% forest strength.

Space

-Option for an expanded tech-tree into the future.

-Space colonization. Not necessarily through multiple earth-like planets, but maybe with a 2d space map acquired by say the Hubble world wonder (virtually just a picture with some planets on it and their attributes). You can then organize missions to the planets, prospect for natural resources and set up mining or real colonies (depending on planet type) all through a couple of screens. Not too much to handle i think. See also timeline text. Of course colonization of real eart-like planets would be great, but probably impossible.


Army/War/Battle

-Logistics and supply for armies. No more Chinese armies of horsemen invading Spain with armies that have travelled tens of thousands of miles through a time-span of centuries

-If a civ declares war on you and another civ lies between your borders, allowing troops of your enemy to march through their terain could or should cause war.

-Better battle. As described in the timeline text, it needs more strategy. On attack, armies should be taken into a battlefield screen and either have the battle play automaticaly or (battle) turn by turn, the two sides make their moves as in chess.

Borders

-Deals to buy or sell tiles (like us did with Alaska) or even cities (especially if potential buyer culture is strong in tile or city).

-Fixed borders after some point, tech or UN decision. Much like today where you barely have any border changes.

-de jure and de facto borders. De facto is cultural influence which also sets the borders in the beginning of the game. De jure are pre-war borders and later in the game the borders decided between nations or wider aliances

Religion

-I liked the feature of the Charlemagne scenario, where civs gain favor with the pope for spreading religion and building religious buildings. They may receive prizes, units or the religious leader may call for a big quest. I also liked the religious orders or medieval banks as corporations feature in another scenario that i can't remember, that allowed special units, buildings and features.

-Call for crusades

-RoM religious features

Diplomacy

-The ability to negotiate with multiple nations at the same time. For example representatives of America, England, France, Germany and, Russia having talks about ending a war, negotiating an alliance, trade embargo

-Unions of the type of the European Union or the NATO

-More options for the United Nations

-United Nations troops.

Map

-Round Earth through hexagonal tiles

-Allow tiles to be changed. We can bring water to a desert and turn it into farmland. We can drain a lake and fill it in. We can bring down mountains or plant a forrest. Terraforming

-Climate changes

-Canals: A city built on an isthmus can only be used as a canal after building the appropriate city improvement, available in the later stage of the game. Until then naval units have to exit the city to the tile they entered it. Also available to build 1-2 tile canals like the Suez or the Panama and charge ships a fee for going through. The canal of course can be built by another nation or corporation and keep control of it for the amount of turns agreed with the host nation, cashing in the profit.

-Navigable rivers and river canals: Rivers are navigable by special units that cannot enter ocean tiles. River canal field improvement like farms and mills. Tiles adjacent to rivers may host multiple improvements like farms, mills and a river canal that is only used to connect rivers for the river units with no other bonuses.

-Build improvements on the field: Damms on rivers, solar panels in the Sahara etc, aeolic parks. Within borders outside city radius, Corporations of foreign nations could also come into play for that

-SAM batteries available as terrain improvements. Also misile silos would be nice to keep your nukes well-stored (not in the middle of a city)


Various

-Way more quests. for bigger or for lesser rewards

-More technologies, especially for the Epic and Marathon speeds.

-More units in the modern era. More types of tanks, planes etc.

-Tanker unit?

-Many features from RFC like spawining of civs in the historical time, historical goals, special ability, world congresses etc. RoM also has a lot of interesting options in that field

-Waaaaaay Bigger maps. Even on huge earth maps one cannot build more than 10-15 cities in Europe in civ iv

-Immigration, both legal and illegal

-Projects like building a fast railway network, a damm, a bridge, a canal, space exploration, space colonization have very large costs. You should definitely not be able to colonize the whole universe, or undertake 100s of space missions in a short time.

-Naming landmarks. like rivers, mountains, seas, peninsulas etc. Gives a random map game a more personal touch (Very important!!)
 
TIMELINE

Here is an explanatory timeline/story to make all the proposed features more understandable.


You have your settler and a warrior on the map, as well as a limited amount of raw resources (wood, food etc) that will help you build your first improvements (tile and city) and units.
In the map you see grasslands, forests, hills, mountains, water, rivers and some animals, but no iron, stone, marble, copper, gold etc.

You settle your first city, which has a cultural border and it expands in time with culture like in civ4. Cities no longer depend on the surrounding tiles for production, growth, science etc. i.e. there is no city radius.
You can take advantance of all tiles within your cultural borders, regardless distance from cities (again, no city radius). Tiles need a road to be build on them in order to produce.

First thing to do is prospect the tiles, one by one in your cultural borders to see what kind of resources lie there. You do that by building a prospector in your city (say you need to use 10 units of your initial stack of food).
He moves around from tile to tile and prospects. Say you find a gold deposit of 200 units on a hill, 300 units of stone on another and 100 units of iron on another. Furthermore you find that a grassland tile is optimal for planting maze and another for planting wheat.

As the game progresses and technological advancements become available you can also find other types of resources like say potato to be ideal for a tile.

You use up say 10 units of your initial stack of wood to build a level 1 lumberjack hut on a forest. Level 1 will give you say 2 units of wood per turn. You also use another 20 units of wood to build a mine on one of the hills the resources of which you need the most.
You also get 2 units of that resource per turn with a level 1 mine. Tile improvements are not built by workers. If all needed resources are forehanded the imrpvement is built instantly. If not it is build in as many turns as needed for the resources to be available.
You may also want to build a hunting log on a tile were game is present or domesticate some cows if available in your cultural borders. Not all of these improvemetns are available from the beginning, you need to acquire the appropriate technology.

So how are you getting technologies? Each technology bares values of exploration, religion, trade, military, politics, expansion, science, engineering etc, very much like in colonization where each founding father had some values.
When your civ accumulates the amount of points in each field needed for a tech, that tech becomes available. For example Masonry may need 100 engineering points, 50 religion points and 50 political points. When your civ reaches those number in each field, Masonry becomes available.
How to gather points for each field? Every action you take in the game gives some points in some field: building a mine on a hill gives say 10 engineering points, bulding a road 5 engineering points, building a city 50 expansion points, building a shrine 20 religious points, exploring a tile 5 exploration points, a farm 10 expansion points and so on.


So now you have your first city, how will it grow? You are getting resources per turn from mines and/or lumberjack huts maybe even farms. Your city has a growth meter depending on various factors such as labor, health, attractivity, immigration etc.
Every building you build in your city bares values: A market place offers say 100 labor points and -10 health points, a wonder 1000 attractivity points (depending on the wonder), a shrine happiness points etc. Everything done in a city offers positive or negative points to the growth meter. If the growth meter is in possitive values, the city grows the amount of people that the meter shows positive. If negative people leave and you need to take action.

As in all civ games so far citizens become available as the city grows (in civ games a city of 15 population has 15 citizens that can either work tiles or be turned into specialists). This will not be exactly the case here. As you can take advantage of all tiles just by building a road on them, and you have no city radius, the available citizens can be used by industries (ancient and modern) to produce more elaborate goods from raw resources. If you have a forge in your city, you can asign a citizen to work the forge and produce swords or shildes, which in turn can be used to train army. More elaborate goods become available with tech advance.

All goods be it raw materials or more elaborate your civ produces are piled up in meters and can be used for trade, production of other goods, bribe etc.

So now you have built a couple of thriving cities and have access to many resources and good amounts of them stored. You want to expand by war. Having built swordsmen catapults etc through the various buildings in your cities you declare war to your neighbor who meets you with his army. 1 on 1 combat is boring, and takes too much time in the case of large armies.
Thus it is better to make combat more like in Conquest of the New World or Call to Power. Attacking the enemy takes you in a battlefield screen made of hexagon tiles. Attacker places his army first and defender follows and places his army as suited. The battle takes place either manually turn by turn, much like in a chess game or it can be automated.

After you beat a couple of enemies you control more cities, especially some that are not as advanced as yours due to looting upon capturing them. War has weared off your resources, you need higher production. Luckily meanwhile techs have become available that allow you to upgrade your tile and city improvements. You upgrade your mines from level 1 to level 2 or 3 and get more out of them in order to bring your new cities up to par with the rest.

Time goes by, you upgrade your buildings and tile improvements, take advantage of all the tiles that lie within your empire, trade goods with your neighbors for gold or other goods and all is well. But then comes the industrialization era: Energy is needed. Your cities need to be lit, you can't upgrade your industries to the next level available through technological advance.

It is time to build your first energy producing coal factory, which takes a lot of money. As just one factory is not enough to supply energy for your vast empire you build more. Your money and resources are depleted and you still need more to stay in competition with the other industrial powers and secure a place in the world's elite and keep your citizens happy and your empire growing.

A loan is needed. Some of your neighbors seem to have piled up quite a lot of money so you ring their bell and ask for a loan...with interest of course. As you need to repay the sum in an agreed turn time, you need to act quick and use the money wisely in order to come up with the sum. First you build energy factories be it coal, or later nuclear. You also take advantage of the rivers in your empire and build energy producing damms. Later in the game you can use that good-for-nothing desert to set up solar panel fields, or that high mountains with depleted iron mines to build a couple of windmills. In any case you now have sufficient energy to upgrade your industries. Production flows, you sell your goods all over the world and easily repay your debt.

You have so much money that you want to do more. Why not set up a couple of corporations that will close deals with underdeveloped countries, to take advantage of their raw resources. They need the money, you need their resources. That desertous backwards country with the 20 tiles of desert is optimal to set up another solar panel complex in foreign soil. And as you already have sufficient energy for yourself, you invite other players to the table. The ones that need energy but don't have enough money or resources to produce it. A three-way deal takes place. You set up your solar panel complex on foreign soil at own cost. You build a pipe or anything else needed to transfer the energy to the country that needs it. You and the desertous country share the profits of selling the energy to the third country. Everyone is happy: Energy starved country has energy, poor desertous country gets money for the deserts they couldn't use, and your investment is paying off, you get even richer and thirsty for even more ventures. The possibility of war with those countries is also deminishing as they are co-dependent now.

More years go by, you are now very powerful with many ventures all over the world. Your corporations are expanding and becoming multinational. Time to take on space. The first relatively cheap missions are successful. Why not prospect the moon and see what type of resources a greedy civ can find there? Of course Space missions are extremely expensive in comparison to any other earthly projects, but it turns out that mineral deposits on the moon are huge. So you use up gigantic amounts of money and resources to set up a small mining colony on the moon. The yield is terrific. As a space pioneer you build a reconescence spaceship in the space station that you have running for a couple of decades now, and set up a launching base on the moon that will reduce cost for a mission to mars.

And of you go. Mars is huge compaired to the moon and mineral resources are abundant. Maybe it is worth it setting up a small base there too. Yet travel times and cost are still enormous. Time goes by, your satelites are roaming the orbit of various planets in the solar system and some have even gotten as far as some close by star systems. Many planets to colonize and take advantage of their resources!!! Mars however is a priority as your competitors are also entertaining thoughts of exploiting the red planet. Of course all you can do in most other planets is setting up mining colonies and not real cities with parks, cinemas etc (this should make this feature doable for a civ game - you don't actually settle the planets and plant cities, you rather get a list of your colonies and a city screen for each, plus a map of space and the planets maybe. In any case you don't have to have extra earth-like planets and make the game too heavy).
 
The First Post was a much better read then the second. I read them both ;)



I agree with most of this list. But Could you elaborate more on how De-Facto De-Jure Borders work? Like how The AI can set them, and How I as a player can set them.
 
The First Post was a much better read then the second. I read them both ;)



I agree with most of this list. But Could you elaborate more on how De-Facto De-Jure Borders work? Like how The AI can set them, and How I as a player can set them.

Thanks for reading such a massive post. i don't expect many people to go through this.

Well de facto borders are the borders defined by cultural influence like it is in civ iv: a tile belongs to the civ with the most culture on it. In real life however this is not always true. Borders between most countries were set at some point and they were defined by treaties and wars. The french american colonies for example came into english possession after a war. Same goes for spanish possessions and the US. Those would be de jure borders. Of course this is also happening in civ4 (though a city may flip back to its mother country after conquest due to culture). What i mean by de jure is fixed borders that do not change due to culture every now and then even in modern times. This could be achieved through many ways. Agreements on fixed borders between two civs, a UN resolution, a discovery of a specific tech, after a fixed number of rounds etc. I just don't think that it is realistic at all to play at 2000 AD and you lose land peacefully due to culture. Would any modern state agree to have their borders cut simply because a neighboring country has a high culture?
 
Maybe you should play the settlers of catan. There you have the proposed ressource management. And i think it is too complex for Civ. You would be busy handling and shifting maybe 20 - 30 different ressources, adjusting their distribution and stuff like that. This wouldnt be Civ any more because it laks of general game strategy replaced by utterly complex micromanagement and tactical decitions.
 
yes i don't like the turn the civ series is taking. they are trying to make it more simple for the masses. And what about us who like micromanagement? Imo turn-based strategy = micromanagement. Btw i don't think it would be too complicates if the appropriate automations were made, i just didn't get into that.

PS: yes, i know civ 5 is not going to be anything like this and i am really worried about the features i've read. i am mostly relying on modders to find it attractive.
 
i don't get why people who don't like micromanagement even bother to play civ? why not play some real-time game like age of empires or sth? Is then civ rev the best civ game or what? And about micromanagement and disorder, Rise of Mankind appears to be one of the most successful mods ever. I guess a lot of us need to be diagnosed then...
 
All your suggestions put together is more complex than FFH and less fun at the same time. Such a game does not sell (unless it's by Paradox).
 
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