The Immortal Challenge Lineup - Game #16 Siam

[Jcakes]

T287 Cultural Victory. Didn't play particularly well, but nice to get a victory out of it.

Spoiler :

 

[sun8119]

CV T228

Spoiler :

Not much to say, 7 salts in the first 2 cities that is something Wonderspam, super growth, religion, culture and tourism - thanks Siamese bonus. I sort of wanted to keep growing and see how it goes but finished it sooner than I wanted to Just hotels and Internet. No WF, nor IG. Voted Historical landmarks and culture from wonders. And around T80 took Atilla's capital to live in peace.

Pretty funny 3 GP want to kill my best religious city

 

[the northman]

peaceful 4 City tradition, Freedom.

Early Game

Spoiler :

Moved settler and founded capitol on hills to the west. Stole workers from Shoshone and the Huns, and pillaged Atilla's trade route. Stayed at war with Atilla for a while, to prevent him from settling in my desert.

2nd city was FoY, and 3rd on the desert coast to the east. 3 city NC, finished turn 69. Same turn, I founded 4th city with rush bought settler on coast to the south, next to the furs. Not an outstanding city spot, but I wanted two coastal cities linked up to send cargos back and forth. 4th city turned out to be decent, with observatory, and Macchu Picchu.

Finished Petra in desert coastal city turn 100. Hit Edu turn 103, and bought a couple Universities.

Religion: took DF, tithe, +15% growth and prod, and rel texts

Mid Game

Spoiler :

Entered Ren thru Acou turn 111, got Secularism turn 125, and founded WC turn 142, when I finally met Askia. First proposal was Cultural Heritage Sites.

I had planned on taking Attila's Cap, but was waiting for him to create some great works, which he never did Ended up just remaining at peace with him, bribing him once or twice, and after that he was always too weak to bother me. I'm kinda disappointed I didn't do more with elephants, but ah well, I was committed to CV, and a war would have only slowed me down after Ren.

I bulbed ST turn 153 (lately I've been bulbing ST rather than founding an academy, seems to work better) and oxforded Radio turn 162 for my ideology.

End Game

Spoiler :

Got Archeology turn 169, and started pumping out archeologists. Chose IG as second WC proposal. Had runaway culture and didn't need the WF, although Maria proposed it--first time I ever had WF and IG going simultaneously. Interestingly, the AI seemed to focus much more on IG than WF.

Going IG caused me to miss some of the late game wonders I would normally get (didn't even build SoL), but I simply didn't need them at that point.

I skipped Plastics (didn't need it for internet, only IG and some hotels). I filled my museums, won IG, got two quick settlers to sell some "resort" cities to Ethiopia and Portugal, and finished them off with some rock concerts. Tourism was at 340, with IG. Timed one GM to finish same turn as IG, and had 5k faith for 3 more, a little overkill. 3 total would have done it.

Great map, budweiser! Very strong dirt. One of my fastest CV's.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

Herp-dee-derp DomV t308

Spoiler :

This game was fairly pleasant, back to the Wide Tradition DomV fun-time show. It's really a trip when you can annex every large city you capture. I lost out to Maria on several Renn theming wonders, so scuttled CV plan and just went for SV. Except Poc pissed me off trying to spread his religion, so I took Moson Kahni, and I guess that just snowballed into a DomV.

Since this is Immortal, I only put 2 in Rat, and not until Industrial. No Honor either, no pillage exploit. I made myself build every wonder I could, and also build Hotels/Airports in any city with wonders or Landmarks. Also ran no scientists in any but my first 4-5 cities. After RLabs I was often at least one military tech ahead of the AI, sometimes several. But the terrain was open, so it wasn't the grind it often is. I tried to take out Askia and Attila on the same turn, but I miscalculated how easily Gao would fall. Here I swam about 12 units (Westward no less, due to taking all of Maria's original cities and sweeping W) and all I needed was a Landship due to a Carrier with 2 Bombers and plenty of BBs, plus 2 Fighters providing cover.

All that coal! Crazy. But almost no oil, which helped my desire for Lebensraum. --This was a fun map! --

 

[consentient]

Nice empire, Nige! Very Pocatello-like!

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

had fun with this last night.

Spoiler :

tried something i hadnt since Vanilla, slingshotting 3 free Wats with Tradition. It wasnt optimal, mind you, but it was fun. id forgotten about policy timings for it though. didnt happen til t133 because i wanted all 3 of them to be free. i opened Tradition, went 4/6 in honor to the garrison bonus then back to trad for free Wats, then completed honor. still havent completed Trad but i dipped into commerc/rationalism opener.

I have 4 XBs with range/logistics that will carry me thru Rome's Cap, maybe another after that depending on terrain. Range is tricky to position with. I took range first for 3 of them to keep them safe while taking Attila's last city. They got logistics as CBs during Shoshones cap, Upgraded while healing just afterwards. Im saving Maria for last since were are friends and trading a lot. She's also top dog in this one, with a strong religion and several good cities. She barely ahead of me but definitely no worth taking on with 10 units -- 6 bows, 2 Naresuans, a Pike and Sword -- and 3 GGs and a 4th one planted. I also have 4 garrisons but theyre staying there. But she'll dislike me soon enough.

I got Petra in the 2nd city. I have good happiness so I took Rat for the bonus to get to Arty faster (i have 2 GS to pop too if upgrade money is available. Wiping out Attila in a joint war from Maria didnt affect her attitude toward me but it did the others. Mass Denouncements happened because I couldnt take the city i was attacking faster than Maria could take hers, haha. It helped goad Rome into DoWing me. And that's working out fine as he's next and my XBs are crushing his legion.

Been awhile since I played Siam in a non-CS oriented way. Im still using CSs just not policy bonuses. the Wat slingshot was fun but still not ideal as it meant not getting Edu/Unis til later. But those two cities will both get to 20 pop before its over. Cant believe I got Petra on t110 or so on Immortal. I think my warmongering did a bit of that. Im just lucky Maria didnt want it. The dom path is very favorable so far. Of course this is LOADS easier with FoY. Definitely wouldnt be moving this fast without it.

gonna play more today during snowpocalypse.

edit: the finish

Spoiler :

nothing to write home about. i was hoping for sub200 but Askia on his own continent threw a wrench into it. I didnt meet him til t170 or so. he ended up being last on t228, mostly travel time that i should have done before i popped Dynamite with Oxford (and beelining Astro - 6 turn delay in getting to Arties). I was timid to wage a war with not enough of my units there but I started with only 4 units (2 artys, 2 muskets) and needed to go ahead and begin clearing units while the other are getting there. i had 2 more arties and a dozen more units so i wasnt worried about losing too many. none were super promod except for 3 XBs that are now gatlings with range (got a surprise GS at the end). but they showed up right at the end. i had 3 arty doing some dmg already. mandekalus are pretty stout but i had Cav/Naresuans now and some spare XBs and front line muskets to die with honor, haha. i think i lost about 8 sacrificial lambs.

Maria went with some effort. she had a city i sold to her (Attila's) right in my area near my cap. i needed to add some units at home to defend. i ended up taking that former Attila city but i wasnt able to liberate it. I was going to for fun but it was interesting that i couldnt. My warmongering is really inefficient when i know its a foregone conclusion. the first 3 caps went quickly, then the next 3 went quickly since Assyria had wiped out Ethiopia. I just had to wade thru one additional city to get to Addis but it had Great Wall. still fell in under 5 turns, haha, there were no more units to clear. immortal is about the extent of my comfortable Dom VCs. Deity standard is hard for me unless i get some really OP UUs. Siam was fun to not go diplo or culture with. Naresuans are decent but 3 movement sucks sometimes, particularly against GW.

here are the pics

 

[the northman]

Interesting strategy with the Wats, H.R. I never thought of trying that. I'm guessing you have to build amphitheaters first?

I can see how this could also work well with a trad/lib or trad/piety reformation combo.

 

[Acken]

Taking three policies to get 4 universities isn't worth it no. But it sure is funny.

 

[the northman]

You're right, Acken, it is much more funny than optimal, but I was thinking of something like:

trad open>piety reformation>legalism>finish trad

With a strong Cap, early NC, and turn 90-100 Edu, it would be cool to try to grab reformation belief, and time legalism to give 4 free Unis Only, I've never tried to build 4 amphitheaters that early, and you have to build 4 Monuments, too. Might slow down libraries. With good dirt, could be possible.

I usually go straight tradition (or sometimes liberty) and don't mix much anymore. Been trying to think of some way to make piety work since the patch.

 

[consentient]

I'm replaying DCL #7 right now and found that (on this map at least) Trad-Piety mix works quite well.

I went Trad Opener -> Wonders (for ToA) -> Piety Opener (hard built Steles so Legalism not so important) -> Organised Religion -> Monarchy -> Reformation -> Finish Tradition.

Gave me a strong religion, there were plenty of river tiles for growth after Civil Service, early religion meant happiness buildings (could have had both mosques and Pagodas but wanted to try Religious Art for once). World Church gave a decent amount of culture before Trad finish.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i think i opened Tradition then went full Honor then back to Trad until the free buildings. it's strangely addicting to have garrisons cost no maintenance and provide culture and happiness, haha. but the timings werent that bad. i could probably refine it to much quicker now that i know it still works. I was just glad it still worked since I hadnt tried the free Wats since before BNW. i think i only wanted to try this going for Dom though. i think i sold the ampthis afterward too.

edit: i see my notes that i went Trad opener, Honor 4/6 then back to Trad for legalism.

 

[Acken]

I still feel reformation is too far down piety (4 policies total) to work well with tradition.
The main strength of tradition is to free up some early hammer with free monuments and very fast aqueducts.

I feel Piety would mix better with Liberty which can be stoped after taking 3. It also work better with Piety's bonuses if you set up a wider game than 4 city tradition. The only other problem is that then taking reformation for your 7th policy runs the risk of getting a poor one...

 

[budweiser]

I'm replaying DCL #7 right now and found that (on this map at least) Trad-Piety mix works quite well.

I went Trad Opener -> Wonders (for ToA) -> Piety Opener (hard built Steles so Legalism not so important) -> Organised Religion -> Monarchy -> Reformation -> Finish Tradition.

Gave me a strong religion, there were plenty of river tiles for growth after Civil Service, early religion meant happiness buildings (could have had both mosques and Pagodas but wanted to try Religious Art for once). World Church gave a decent amount of culture before Trad finish.

That's decent play. I've done things like that.

 

[consentient]

I still feel reformation is too far down piety (4 policies total) to work well with tradition.
The main strength of tradition is to free up some early hammer with free monuments and very fast aqueducts.

I feel Piety would mix better with Liberty which can be stoped after taking 3. It also work better with Piety's bonuses if you set up a wider game than 4 city tradition. The only other problem is that then taking reformation for your 7th policy runs the risk of getting a poor one...

You are right in most cases. However, in this game, at the time I was choosing the next policy I noticed NOONE had gone Piety (very unusual). So I 'beelined' for Jesuit Education, and got it

 

[the northman]

Good job grabbing jesuits, consentient! That one's usually impossible to get, especially post-patch as so many AI's go piety now. I like the way you mixed the two trees, getting policies right when you needed them, tailored to the in-game situation.

Acken, I agree that lib/piety is normally a better mix than trad/piety, for the reasons you listed. I was thinking of Siam as a special case for trad/piety (or a lib or hon mix as H.R. did). Would probably require a cultural CS ally, and a very good start, but it would be cool to pull off a fast SV using piety

Regarding the risk of getting a poor reformation, while experimenting with lib/piety post-patch, I noticed that the AI almost never takes Glory of God reformation, which works well liberty, and many different VC.

 

[Acken]

Well on this map the problem is that you don't have room to expand so lib/piety wouldn't be that interesting on this particular one.

 

[budweiser]

Well on this map the problem is that you don't have room to expand so lib/piety wouldn't be that interesting on this particular one.

This map has

Spoiler :

2 rivers west plus FoY

. Then it has

Spoiler :

a salt river east, more desert and an easy Attila.

For close by CS you have

Spoiler :

Culture & Religion.

 

[Acken]

Yes 4 cities Hardly justifying lib/piety.

 

[budweiser]

Yes 4 cities Hardly justifying lib/piety.

We can agree to disagree, but I'm seeing about 6 cities.

Spoiler :

Including 2 nearby caps. Also lots of desert for DF not too mention insane 1st half hammers and the UU. Liberty/Piety>Rationalism. Science victory.

 

[Acken]

Nevermind

Maybe I'll play one for giggles.