The importance of navy in Civ VI

mrwho

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One change I really appreciated in Civ V was the improved importance of the navy. By allowing melee ships to capture enemy cities, you could be severely punished if you neglected your naval forces. In previous iterations the punishments weren't quite as severe, but your coastal cities could still definitely be caught unawares if you didn't maintain a naval threat.

In VI, I'm not sure this will be the case. From the information given so far, there is little incentive to settle a city on the coast. To build a harbor, you only need it to be within the range of the city and on the coast. This means, from a defensive standpoint, it'd be recommended to settle a city three tiles away from the coast. From this distance, any surprise attack can be much more easily stopped with your land forces and the city is out of range of ranged ships, and even 1 tile away, the city doesn't have to worry about melee ships at all. Your cities will also usually be stronger in this position anyway, because they'll have access to a higher number of land tiles that will, on average, give greater yields to sea tiles. Really, the only reason to settle directly on or close to the coast would be if there was a luxury far away that you want to access as soon as possible. So, unless you want to go to war, there isn't much of a point in building or maintaining a strong navy. You can almost completely neglect it and it wouldn't negatively affect you as long as you place your cities strategically. Similarly, a strong navy against a good AI would be wasted hammers and gold, because they wouldn't be able to do much other than defend an invasion.

So, thoughts? Am I missing something, or will the navy end up being mostly unimportant in VI?
 
Depends on things we don't have information on, like sea trade routes.
 
One change I really appreciated in Civ V was the improved importance of the navy. By allowing melee ships to capture enemy cities, you could be severely punished if you neglected your naval forces. In previous iterations the punishments weren't quite as severe, but your coastal cities could still definitely be caught unawares if you didn't maintain a naval threat.

In VI, I'm not sure this will be the case. From the information given so far, there is little incentive to settle a city on the coast. To build a harbor, you only need it to be within the range of the city and on the coast. This means, from a defensive standpoint, it'd be recommended to settle a city three tiles away from the coast. From this distance, any surprise attack can be much more easily stopped with your land forces and the city is out of range of ranged ships, and even 1 tile away, the city doesn't have to worry about melee ships at all. Your cities will also usually be stronger in this position anyway, because they'll have access to a higher number of land tiles that will, on average, give greater yields to sea tiles. Really, the only reason to settle directly on or close to the coast would be if there was a luxury far away that you want to access as soon as possible. So, unless you want to go to war, there isn't much of a point in building or maintaining a strong navy. You can almost completely neglect it and it wouldn't negatively affect you as long as you place your cities strategically. Similarly, a strong navy against a good AI would be wasted hammers and gold, because they wouldn't be able to do much other than defend an invasion.

So, thoughts? Am I missing something, or will the navy end up being mostly unimportant in VI?


I see what you are saying. One counter *might* be to pillage the harbor and bombard the crap out of the city center if it is a couple tiles away. Perhaps once the harbor is negated pillage any sea resources.

Not sure what benefits yet there are for coast settling.
 
We still don't know a lot about sea districts , sea trading, and warfare. I imagine that in the same way you want a lot of mountains and jungles for a science city, you may want to max your acces to sea tiles for a heavy trade focused city.
 
One change I really appreciated in Civ V was the improved importance of the navy. By allowing melee ships to capture enemy cities, you could be severely punished if you neglected your naval forces. In previous iterations the punishments weren't quite as severe, but your coastal cities could still definitely be caught unawares if you didn't maintain a naval threat.

In VI, I'm not sure this will be the case. From the information given so far, there is little incentive to settle a city on the coast. To build a harbor, you only need it to be within the range of the city and on the coast. This means, from a defensive standpoint, it'd be recommended to settle a city three tiles away from the coast. From this distance, any surprise attack can be much more easily stopped with your land forces and the city is out of range of ranged ships, and even 1 tile away, the city doesn't have to worry about melee ships at all. Your cities will also usually be stronger in this position anyway, because they'll have access to a higher number of land tiles that will, on average, give greater yields to sea tiles. Really, the only reason to settle directly on or close to the coast would be if there was a luxury far away that you want to access as soon as possible. So, unless you want to go to war, there isn't much of a point in building or maintaining a strong navy. You can almost completely neglect it and it wouldn't negatively affect you as long as you place your cities strategically. Similarly, a strong navy against a good AI would be wasted hammers and gold, because they wouldn't be able to do much other than defend an invasion.

So, thoughts? Am I missing something, or will the navy end up being mostly unimportant in VI?

I would say that seem possible, but there might be some reason to still found cities directly on the coast. So far, we know hat a harbor district with it advantages can be build by cities one or two tiles away from the coast.

But imo are there some reason who speak for a direct placement on the shore:

1. You get the eureka bonus which will help the research of the whole naval branch of the tech tree, if the tech tree is similiar build like in previous civs.
2. We dont know yet, when the harbor district is available at all! Imo it could be an unlock during the classical era, maybe a bit earlier, a bit later...
3. You will use up one possible district for your city, in the early game it is questionable if you will build an harbor for an inland city. If there are good mountain tiles for a good science or faith bonus, you could have a good wonder building town so the culture district would get more use etc.
4. You can build naval units without an harbor district
5. Until now it seems that gold from coast tiles is back, but not directly from rivers. But rivers seem to get a buff to commercial districts. So in general, if you are not that lucky with luxuries who give gold and you are in need of it, a direct coast city will have in the most cases more gold from tiles than no coast cities, at least early in the game. Plus we dont know how that appeal system really works.
6. In the harbor district will be build those buildings who give advantages for coast/ocean tiles and a coastal city give more.
7. We dont know how effective sea trade routes will be. In Civ 5 they were stronger then the inland caravans. So coast cities might get that advantage earlier or more possible than inland cities.
8. Wonders are know build on tiles and the coloss at at least is build offshore. A coastal city can it build earlier if you dont have a lot of culture border expansion or if purchasing a tile is still expansive for outer ring tiles.
9. If you can say that coastal cities have a better access to gold income from tile yields, there might be a good synergy between coastal cities and commercial districts, especially if the coastal city has access to rivers/is founded next to one. In the commercial district will be build all those commercial building which give gold boni. I think a city with a higher gold income from tiles will have a bigger advantage.

Those are some points which come in mind if I think about it. A lot of the actual mechanics is still unknown. But I have to agree, there are some disadvantages:

1. You will have less space for districts and wonders.
2. I think it is more likely, that those terrain boni for science district etc. will be better accessable for inland city.
3. In general in all the previous games, an inland city will have more production and so can get things faster done, so with an harbor a inland city might be the better choice for your navy building.
4. In the most cases, an inland city has the better food production, in previous games (a lot of) river farms and more food bonus ressources were better than coast/ocean tiles.
5. And again, we dont know the advantages of sea trade routes. It might still be beneficial for an inland city to build that district just for those sea trade routes (+ better navy production) over the decision to build another district.
6. And yes, you have the said defense advantage against naval invasions. (But if you have a strong navy, a near coast can help to defend attacks from the land)
7. And yeah, even if you have 1-4 coast tiles in city range, you might even save a harbor district if you dont want to build ships in that city and it cant make that much of profit of an extra district. Because I think, in coastal city you will often build the harbor district to buff your tile yields and your navy anyway.


You can see, there already a lot of ??? but I think we can make the right decision when we know more about the mechanic and if my mentioned points are somehow valid or not. Especially England and Japan might have a big use for it, at least for those civs it isnt that hurtfull anymore to settle one tile away from the coast. But if you have a naval oriented playstyle, a coastal city is obvisiouly the faster choice in the early game, but with the new changes, later in the game a bit more inland cities will join the club of accessing the seas.

Especially Egypt might profit a lot from the new harbors. Egypt wants to settle on as many river tiles as possible. But at the same time, it gets boni from trade routes, which might be even higher for sea trade routes. So you might just build one city at the coast to get the early bonus, but later you can build only one rivers 3 tiles away from the coast if the river is long enough and you still get access to the sea.

And finally, it is quite realistic. In my imagination those districts are like some minor cities in the space of a metropolis and especially Rome and Athen are inland cities and without their "harbor districts" of Ostia and Piraeus, those ancient civilizations wouldnt have worked the way they did...
 
Being able to capture cities with ships was always (in my opinion) silly, so having the value of the naval game depending only on that was a problem to begin with.

I don't think we know enough about naval mechanics in Civ VI to be able to answer this question with any degree of validity.
 
i always viewed capturing a city with melee ships as a boarding party (then marines in a modern modern era) going off-ship.
 
Then you should have actual marines (small "m") on board... naval units should be able to combine with melee units or range units similarly to how 2 units can combine to form an "army". A trireme could then shoot arrows or launch an invasion, but not both. And the melee unit "on board" could both act as a boarding party or shore invader. Or the archer (etc.) as a ranged component of the ship.
 
Amphibious warfare units. Bring back transport ship units to land multible units onto any shore. Allow the building of other Amphbious units such as helocopter carriers, Personnel/vehicle transport aircraft such as a C-130 to airlift multible units to desired locations.

In Civ II I played the WWII scenario often. Loading transports was quite vital to having any success. In Civ III I used transports to land Settlers and Workers to build overseas cities. And they were very effective in landing invading forces. As one who actually served in an amphibious fleet, I can say it is a crucial part of any mass military operation. That is the one disappointment about Civ V. Not having that vital unit. What's the point of building Marine units without transport ships? i do hope it's something that's addressed at some point.
 
1UPT => No transport ships as they are stacks => Less importance of navy, since naval movement is the same or slower than land movement.

Harbor districts => Less cities built on shore => Less importance of navy due to less important targets for attack.

To compensate this, some real naval trade should come in. And probably increased embarked movement. Maybe developers invented some other cool things as well.
 
It seems like only water tiles may be the only reliable way to get gold and gold itself may be a more valuable resource in civilization 6.

The overall yields of water tiles may be as good as your average improved land tile now.

Costal cities may get an happines (can not spell the correct word;) boost.
 
Having a fleet or at least one scout ship out as soon as possible was and probably will be important. Developing harbour districts will probably take some time. So it could be smart to settle the first one or two cities directly on the coast.
 
Being able to capture cities with ships was always (in my opinion) silly, so having the value of the naval game depending only on that was a problem to begin with.

I don't think we know enough about naval mechanics in Civ VI to be able to answer this question with any degree of validity.

I don't think it is silly by any stretch. Hayreddin Barbarossa for example was a great naval commander of the Ottoman fleet. He not only fought on the sea but also raided many cities & towns & captured them for the Ottoman empire.

i always viewed capturing a city with melee ships as a boarding party (then marines in a modern modern era) going off-ship.
This.

Then you should have actual marines (small "m") on board... naval units should be able to combine with melee units or range units similarly to how 2 units can combine to form an "army". A trireme could then shoot arrows or launch an invasion, but not both. And the melee unit "on board" could both act as a boarding party or shore invader. Or the archer (etc.) as a ranged component of the ship.

One word: abstraction.
What is wrong with idea of boarding parties & some soldiers on the ship for raiding & capturing cities/towns? If land units need to be garissoned on ships for attacking cities, then the next step would be bringing archers/cannons on your ships in order to attack units because ships forgot to put some crew & cannons on their ships.
 
I would even like to further expand the concept of melee naval units. Like the vikings were famous for raiding coastal areas, it should be possible to raid/pillage coast tile improvements with melee ships, maybe even attack units on those tiles.

Sure, I know it might be quite difficult to programm or balance it, but it would give naval forces way more possiblities and importance. Until now, you can only pillage fishing boats and oil rigs, yeah! That it and yeah, capturing enemy coast cities. But especially in Civ 5, most melee naval units were way to weak to get a city without proper bombarding first and in most cases especially in BNW the cities werent even accessable by too many coast tiles because they were way less usefull then before ...
 
So i agree with OP that there will be less cities to raid. However dont forget that all the districts are now on tiles and can be attacked. If a player ignores their navy you can just bombard them repeatedly from the coast until their cities dont have any buildings. I think this might actually make navies more important than in civ 5.

Practically speaking a navy was useless if the city was even one or two tiles away from the ocean. Even if you could attack it in range, youd only be able to field 2 or 3 ships because it was so inland, while the land artillery could have a lot more to shoot back.

Now there will be lot more targets. Even if a city is 4 tiles away from the nearest coastal tile itll have a couple of districts up to 3 tiles away. Essentially allowing you to attack half of their buildings. The only way to be truly safe from any naval attack youd have to build distrcits 4 tiles away from rhe coast always. Which is a vast amount of land to avoid.

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I don't think it is silly by any stretch. Hayreddin Barbarossa for example was a great naval commander of the Ottoman fleet. He not only fought on the sea but also raided many cities & towns & captured them for the Ottoman empire.


This.



One word: abstraction.
What is wrong with idea of boarding parties & some soldiers on the ship for raiding & capturing cities/towns? If land units need to be garissoned on ships for attacking cities, then the next step would be bringing archers/cannons on your ships in order to attack units because ships forgot to put some crew & cannons on their ships.

I don't think that's out of the question though... Think Spanish Armada. Part of the reason they ran into trouble was that their mission included a side trip to get the land forces from the Soanish Netherlands they needed for the invasion. There is such thing as too much abstraction. As I said previously, being able to combine land units with naval units as a combined "army" is in effect a melee naval unit... With the added advantage that the melee unit can break into its components should you wish to pillage the coast. These combined units could also directly attack cities as a unit... Basically acting as naval melee in that case.
 
Naval melee is not a problem to me. But since we could expect a lot fo cities in Civ6 to be out of coast, they are unlikely to be needed. Pillaging Harbor with any ship should be enough.
 
If you can bombard districts with some heavy ships, like they say you can with bombers, then navies can be deadly.
 
1UPT => No transport ships as they are stacks => Less importance of navy, since naval movement is the same or slower than land movement.
I don't think transport ships are impossible with 1UPT, especially with Civ VI system of attaching support units and considering that each unit is meant to represent a significantly larger formation.

First picture is worst case scenario, still 4 units on land, and could be more if you can stack a few units of the same type. Second picture - 6 units on land, additional two (or more with stacking) if it was possible for helicopters to hover over water
Spoiler :
NHxKpvY.png

Also you don't have to unload all your units the turn you arrive at the beach. With two waves you could land a considerable force (by Civ V standards), and that's just one transport ship.

Firaxis doesn't seem interested in overhauling the system, but I think it wouldn't be impossible for a mod to implement transport ships without changing base of the movement system.
 
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