The importance of the science lead seems greatly diminished

[Vohbo]

Truth is ofcourse that science IS civilization. As Neil deGrasse Tyson has pointed out repeatedly, the scientific discovery leads to prosperity. When the arab world was ahead in technology, they were also an economic and cultural superpower, the same is true for the United States and so on.
The fact that this is so well represented in the game seems to me like its greatest triumph: teaching people that all victories are actually science victories, and that the only thing that makes a civilization succeed is its acquisition of knowledge. (However perverted that can sometimes become)

I think the issue therefore is not that science is a dominant factor in the game, but that the scientific cascade is overpowered from the standpoint of the game mechanics. Scientific knowledge bleeds much easier in real life (and so it should in Civ).
I also think that the Science Victory is too early on the tech tree. It's pretty hard to get use out of a good late game unit at the moment because by the time you have them, build them, and position them, the game is usually over. Especially on Deity, it seems like the only victory condition an AI can win with is the science victory, and it seems very unbalanced.

 

[kaspergm]

Truth is ofcourse that science IS civilization. As Neil deGrasse Tyson has pointed out repeatedly, the scientific discovery leads to prosperity. When the arab world was ahead in technology, they were also an economic and cultural superpower, the same is true for the United States and so on.
The fact that this is so well represented in the game seems to me like its greatest triumph: teaching people that all victories are actually science victories, and that the only thing that makes a civilization succeed is its acquisition of knowledge. (However perverted that can sometimes become)

That is all good from a realism perspective, but that still doesn't change the fact that having one single game element having crucial importance for every other aspect of the game is very bad for gameplay.

I think the issue therefore is not that science is a dominant factor in the game, but that the scientific cascade is overpowered from the standpoint of the game mechanics. Scientific knowledge bleeds much easier in real life (and so it should in Civ).
I also think that the Science Victory is too early on the tech tree. It's pretty hard to get use out of a good late game unit at the moment because by the time you have them, build them, and position them, the game is usually over. Especially on Deity, it seems like the only victory condition an AI can win with is the science victory, and it seems very unbalanced.

Yes, I agree with what you say here. But the dilemma is obviously, that if you have science "bleed" faster you will effectively just cut gametime shorter - unless you introduce more eras, which I am in principle in favor of - so that is a fine line to walk. I fully agree with you about Science Victory though, and like I've said before, I think it's problematic that SV is essentially nothing but a time victory that rewards whoever comes to the end of the tech tree first, because with current game system, optimizing tech rate is something you want to do no matter what goal you pursue, so Science Victory essentially just rewards you for doing what you would do anyway. If instead Science Victory would require you to somehow use that scientific progress in a different way than you normally would, that would make things less intertwined and therefore make it less crucial that "normal" science plays such a vital role.

 

[Sonereal]

Yes, I agree with what you say here. But the dilemma is obviously, that if you have science "bleed" faster you will effectively just cut gametime shorter

Or just tweak a few numbers in GameSpeeds to increase tech costs.

 

[Aaron90495]

Or just tweak a few numbers in GameSpeeds to increase tech costs.

This is exactly what I was about to suggest. By making techs get expensive quicker, the penalty for going to the bottom of the tree is less severe, as other Civs don't get ahead of you as fast. As well, that lengthens the game. Obviously, this doesn't solve everything, but it sure solves a lot.

 

[JtW]

I think it's problematic that SV is essentially nothing but a time victory that rewards whoever comes to the end of the tech tree first, because with current game system, optimizing tech rate is something you want to do no matter what goal you pursue, so Science Victory essentially just rewards you for doing what you would do anyway. If instead Science Victory would require you to somehow use that scientific progress in a different way than you normally would, that would make things less intertwined and therefore make it less crucial that "normal" science plays such a vital role.

Maybe one way to alleviate this would be to make spaceship parts accessible only with Future Tech (e.g., each Future Tech you've researched would give you access to one SS part)?
This way you would have to actually complete the tech tree before you win, it would increase the longevity of the late era units, and it would make other victories more feasible in a lot of situations.

 

[kaspergm]

Maybe one way to alleviate this would be to make spaceship parts accessible only with Future Tech (e.g., each Future Tech you've researched would give you access to one SS part)?
This way you would have to actually complete the tech tree before you win, it would increase the longevity of the late era units, and it would make other victories more feasible in a lot of situations.

Yes, I'm going to try something like this through a mod, what I'll do is move all the spaceship parts to the end of information era and put them in a separate branch on the tech tree. Thus, the space ship parts will not be something that you just get on the way to researching nukes, rocket artillery or whatever, but something you'll have to actively pursue on behalf of the other things.

 

[Seek]

Yes, I'm going to try something like this through a mod, what I'll do is move all the spaceship parts to the end of information era and put them in a separate branch on the tech tree. Thus, the space ship parts will not be something that you just get on the way to researching nukes, rocket artillery or whatever, but something you'll have to actively pursue on behalf of the other things.

Alternatively, you could have the Apollo Program at Future Tech. Doing it thus would allow opponents time to attack and potentially destroy any premade SS parts.

I dislike the current sequence of building Apollo first and then the SS parts because the player simply attaches the parts and undermines the whole point of the SS parts being units.

 

[cutelilduck]

I agree 100% to OP.

Science is always the top priority equal to or higher than Food no matter what victory condition you go for.

It gets kind of stale rushing Science in both MP and high single player difficulties for any kind of victory.

Unfortunately I think Science will remain in its current position unless they give the 'bottom' military-based tech tree production and/or food bonuses.

But we will have to see!

 

[Ninakoru]

I am agree, science should be the most important feature in a civ game, but is so dominant that it nullify every other resource in the game. How the difficulty handicap works it makes it up much worse. Narrowing options as you up in difficulties, and pretty much obligated to beeline science and NC rush to be successful on higher diffs.

I had games I have done quite well on culture and religion, but without a powerful science I didn't have much winning options. On the other side every game I played with poor policy development and no religion, but strong science was win win at the end. This is a glaring issue.

There are some game mechanics that help with science catch-up, spionage, lower costs as the tech was already researched by others, but you have so much to lose if you are behind in tech, is not enough. First you lose access to wonders, you lose important buildings, you will have units on lower tiers, sometimes the power difference is so big that this is a problem most of the time. Getting access first to artillery or planes can change the tides of war.

 

[kaspergm]

Something that could help with the science problem would be a split tech tree, like someone posted a while ago on the 2k Forum. The idea is basically that you have a central tech line with the techs themself, but that the applications of the techs - buildings, units, wonders, etc. - are separate subbranches that you have to research individually. This would be interesting, because it would let you skip on some of the side branches to catch up if you are falling behind in certain tech areas, as well as would have a range of other interesting aspects for science game and even science victory.