The Italy Thread

[manio curio]

Hi all,

I just finished playing with Italy, pics and final save attached, here are my thoughts:

UHV 1: It was doable, a while ago I struggled with Portugal finishing Santa Maria del Fiore but it was pretty smooth this time, I would like to add the Milan Cathedral or Duomo di Milano as other wonder to be included in the UHV. The bonus would be an extra +10% on building production for all cities and it would come on the same technology the Sistine Chapel does, to be defined the specific culture bonus and the great engineer points. Adding one more wonder would make the new UHV 1 more challenging, I am more than happy to test it if there is agreement on the addition.

UHV 2: Probably the easiest, with Republic, UP and monasticism ( I believe at least) the great people birthrates go up, I had some luck with the great people probabilities but I had 2 extra artists left by the time I got it done.

UHV 3: This one was tricky, in the sense it is important to be patient and not jump the gun. I waited and I attacked the independents following collapses of the Moors and Ottomans ( the latter kept its core only ). I tried a more aggressive approach and I ended up with a -6 stability points due to bad relations.

UP, UU and UB: the UP mocks Italian history very well: a civilization leader in science, commerce and culture in the middle ages and reneaissance, but decadence upon entering the Industrial Era, the free specialists really improve the finances and research, together with San Marco's basilica. As they expire things get rough for italy as history shows us. All well done @Leoreth, this aspect of the Italian civilization is perfect. The UB works really well with the UHVs, especially it providing an artist as specialist. The lanterna is useful for protecting the shores from pirates and it mocks well Italy's history as seafarers, the balestriere was helpful but I would suggest to introduce the 'redshirt' or 'garibaldino' as UU and replace the rifleman. the bonus would be +25% when fighting on Italian soil. It would perfectly mock the Italian Risorgimento movement for independence while also giving the AI a better fighting chance as they seem to struggle while playing with Italy.

Miscellaneous:

1- Colonialism was a big boost, my African colonies were more productive than the cities in the mainland, I am not complaining at all, just unsure about its historicity.
2- Tunisia should be conquest area given the brief occupation from the kingdom of Sicily, just my 2 cents on it.
3- I am struggling to keep other civs in at least acceptable terms, any suggestions besides gifting techs?

Final thoughts:

A complete blast, I really enjoyed myself. Thanks @Leoreth

 

[borhap88]

I'm not sure about your proposed new UU. Unlike history, in RFC you aim to unify Italy before Renaissance and fight your industrial era wars outside Paeninsula. In the past, there was Bersagliere (infantry with double movement points), but I'd rather prefer to keep Balestriere.

As we can see in your outcome, I think Ethiopia should be included in the 3rd UHV.

UHV1 and 2 are now too easy. The ideal scenario would be having more troubles in conquering Rome and Southern Italy. I'd like to see Italian Wars, maybe raising war maps value of stranger powers, but I don't really know how it works.

P.S. I found Avogadro as Great Prophet in my latest Git update game.

 

[Kott]

I think adding a cathedral to the 1st or the 2nd goal would be ok, as it would automatically require you either to conquer independents or to settle Split.

 

[Dracosolon]

I've long felt that UHV 1 and 2 could be combined together, since they synchronize anyway.

Problem is a new intermediary goal is hard to make fun since Italy was fractured and weak for a very long time. My idea was: "Settle a Great Statesman and another Great Person in six cities in Italy by 1870 AD." - the idea being you're simulating the renewal of a unified Italian identity, politically and otherwise. Alternatively it could be about spawning these in several cities since that's harder to do equitably, instead of having a designated city. On the other hand, I personally don't find spawning UHVs very fun since they tend to be fairly passive, but it's hard to come up with something proactive.

Something could also be done about Rome, since as it is the human player often ends up keeping Florence as its capital; "Have a Palace and three National Wonders in Rome by 1870 AD."?

 

[manio curio]

I'm not sure about your proposed new UU. Unlike history, in RFC you aim to unify Italy before Renaissance and fight your industrial era wars outside Paeninsula. In the past, there was Bersagliere (infantry with double movement points), but I'd rather prefer to keep Balestriere.

As we can see in your outcome, I think Ethiopia should be included in the 3rd UHV.

UHV1 and 2 are now too easy. The ideal scenario would be having more troubles in conquering Rome and Southern Italy. I'd like to see Italian Wars, maybe raising war maps value of stranger powers, but I don't really know how it works.

P.S. I found Avogadro as Great Prophet in my latest Git update game.

Let me double check the spreadsheet with the great people, I will make sure Avogadro is among the scientists.

I agree Ethiopia can be added to UHV 3, however I would like to play with a higher difficulty first just to probe the overall game. I did my game with the lowest difficulty. Which difficulty level did you play at?

In general I felt the unique historical goals were on par with other civs I have played in the past, nothing overwhelmingly easy. My suggestion of adding the Milan's cathedral is for historical reasons, not because the goal was necessarily too easy

 

[borhap88]

Let me double check the spreadsheet with the great people, I will make sure Avogadro is among the scientists.

I agree Ethiopia can be added to UHV 3, however I would like to play with a higher difficulty first just to probe the overall game. I did my game with the lowest difficulty. Which difficulty level did you play at?

In general I felt the unique historical goals were on par with other civs I have played in the past, nothing overwhelmingly easy. My suggestion of adding the Milan's cathedral is for historical reasons, not because the goal was necessarily too easy

Monarch/Marathon.
Regarding 3rd UHV, it can also occurr that super-Ottomans make things very difficult, so it might be useful taking (historical) Athens from them asap to slow down their run.

 

[Leoreth]

P.S. I found Avogadro as Great Prophet in my latest Git update game.

Perhaps it was Alberto Avogadro, also known as Albert of Vercelli?

 

[SultanRedSnake]

UHV Proposal: First, add Pineapples as a resource and make the goal "Ensure no Civ ever gains access to Pineapples"

 

[manio curio]

Monarch/Marathon.
Regarding 3rd UHV, it can also occurr that super-Ottomans make things very difficult, so it might be useful taking (historical) Athens from them asap to slow down their run.

@borhap88 you are spot on, however taking Athens early may require to divert the few military units available, it could work if I don't sign a right of passage deal with any of the foreign powers, however I found out letting France and Holy Rome in can actually be beneficial since they can weaken Rome's defence. But definitively a good suggestion for future games. I always shot for Moors + Greece + middle east to complete UHV 3, it seems the best bang for my buck, but as you correctly pointed out if the Ottomans are doing well it will become a quagmire.

The other option would be Spain, but I never tried to attack Spain since it will likely require taking Madrid too and I am not sure the # of mediterrenean tiles Spain has available would be enough. Have you or anyone else ever tried?

 

[manio curio]

I've long felt that UHV 1 and 2 could be combined together, since they synchronize anyway.

Problem is a new intermediary goal is hard to make fun since Italy was fractured and weak for a very long time. My idea was: "Settle a Great Statesman and another Great Person in six cities in Italy by 1870 AD." - the idea being you're simulating the renewal of a unified Italian identity, politically and otherwise. Alternatively it could be about spawning these in several cities since that's harder to do equitably, instead of having a designated city. On the other hand, I personally don't find spawning UHVs very fun since they tend to be fairly passive, but it's hard to come up with something proactive.

Something could also be done about Rome, since as it is the human player often ends up keeping Florence as its capital; "Have a Palace and three National Wonders in Rome by 1870 AD."?

@Dracosolon you hit the bullseye, with the current map resolution there aren't that many other possible UHVs to design. RFC Europe does a pretty good job, but that type of map resolution would be impractical on a global scale.

The statemen idea is a nice one, however besides Pasquale Paoli and maybe Cesare Beccaria there weren't many that reallty moved the needle in terms of theoretical politics or political science, therefore it is probably not better than the current UHVs.

Same with Rome, it wasn't actually re-developed until the Fascist Age where a lot of neighborhoods or buildings ( square coliseum among all ) were built, but maybe we could push the historical boundaries a little bit. Let me do some readings on the matter maybe there is something we can do about it.

 

[SOVNARKOM]

I haven't tried the new version of Italy yet, but based on my experience in version 1.17, it seems that the first two UHVs are more challenging (whether it's fighting for wonders or cultural points), while the third one, although in line with history, is too lenient in terms of time constraints(Although this may be related to the difficulty of my game and my preference for external expansion)

 

[SOVNARKOM]

As for territory, considering Italy's history in World War II, I believe that besides Tunisia, Egypt can also be included in the conquered area.
In addition, the colonial attempts of pre unification Italian countries in the Americas may also be included?

 

[manio curio]

I haven't tried the new version of Italy yet, but based on my experience in version 1.17, it seems that the first two UHVs are more challenging (whether it's fighting for wonders or cultural points), while the third one, although in line with history, is too lenient in terms of time constraints(Although this may be related to the difficulty of my game and my preference for external expansion)

The time constraint fr the 3rd UHV fits the historical timeline. The 'Mare Nostrum ' as a concept came up with the Fascist period 1930 is halfway through it more or less. Plus Italy really solidified its grip on Lybia after 1930. All in all it seems to be a historically sound timeline

 

[SOVNARKOM]

The time constraint fr the 3rd UHV fits the historical timeline. The 'Mare Nostrum ' as a concept came up with the Fascist period 1930 is halfway through it more or less. Plus Italy really solidified its grip on Lybia after 1930. All in all it seems to be a historically sound timeline

This concept does indeed come from Italian nationalism and fascism. However, considering the birth time of Italy, the length of nearly 800 years seems too loose. With the expansion of the core area after the industrial era, players can even try to completely restore the territory of the Roman Empire.
In addition, the history of Italian maritime republics such as Venice and Genoa seems to be lacking in UHV(except for Basilica San Marco), and I believe that both commercial empires in the Eastern Mediterranean,wealth accumulation , or luxury resource acquisition can be very interesting targets(Even conduct a trade missions to China area)

 

[manio curio]

This concept does indeed come from Italian nationalism and fascism. However, considering the birth time of Italy, the length of nearly 800 years seems too loose. With the expansion of the core area after the industrial era, players can even try to completely restore the territory of the Roman Empire.
In addition, the history of Italian maritime republics such as Venice and Genoa seems to be lacking in UHV(except for Basilica San Marco), and I believe that both commercial empires in the Eastern Mediterranean,wealth accumulation , or luxury resource acquisition can be very interesting targets(Even conduct a trade missions to China area)

I don't think Italy has enough non-foreign area tiles to be able to reconquer the land that used to be part of the Roman empire. Plus besides fascism no Italian polity even remotely tried to do any meaningful military enterprise outside of a few islands in the Mediterranean Sea. We could rename the first UHV as a more broad maritime Republic goal and add something along the lines of make a commercial mission to China or be the first Western European to have diplomatic relations with China. RFC Europe has a UHV for Genoa about import/export and that could be added as well.

 

[SOVNARKOM]

I don't think Italy has enough non-foreign area tiles to be able to reconquer the land that used to be part of the Roman empire. Plus besides fascism no Italian polity even remotely tried to do any meaningful military enterprise outside of a few islands in the Mediterranean Sea. We could rename the first UHV as a more broad maritime Republic goal and add something along the lines of make a commercial mission to China or be the first Western European to have diplomatic relations with China. RFC Europe has a UHV for Genoa about import/export and that could be added as well.

Oh, I implemented this in version 1.17, but forgot that there are significantly more cities that need to be controlled on larger maps now. Although indeed, this is not historical, even fascist Italy only controlled some territories in North Africa and southern France. I just think the deadline for this UHV was too late, so players had almost nothing to do after completing the first two(To some extent, it is somewhat similar to the new version of Sweden).The UHV of import/export sounds interesting. By the way, what are the UHVs for Venice in RFC Europe?

 

[Orbii]

Oh, I implemented this in version 1.17, but forgot that there are significantly more cities that need to be controlled on larger maps now. Although indeed, this is not historical, even fascist Italy only controlled some territories in North Africa and southern France. I just think the deadline for this UHV was too late, so players had almost nothing to do after completing the first two(To some extent, it is somewhat similar to the new version of Sweden).The UHV of import/export sounds interesting. By the way, what are the UHVs for Venice in RFC Europe?

Venice has pretty conquest-heavy UHVs in RFC Europe, off memory. The major one is conquering Constantinople by 1204, and being the first civ to complete a colonization project (in RFC Europe, these are projects that require access to a specific strategic resource to be built). Genoa has the import/export UHV where you need to generate a certain amount of gold from trading things (I think), and they also have a colonization/conquest UHV where they need to have a certain number of cities in the eastern Mediterranean / Black Sea.

My suggestion for UHV3 would be to split it into two goals, similar to other conquest UHVs for medieval civs that stretch into the early modern era (e.g. Burma). The second part would be what it is now to reflect the ambitions of Fascist Italy, while the new first part would be something like "Control three of Sicily, Crete, Crimea, or Cyprus in 1475 AD*." I think this goal would help push Italy into early/mid-game tension with Byzantium and the Ottomans, which is historical, and lead naturally to the later stage goal, while also requiring the player to push some overseas military action early (which IMO is the correct strategy anyways) instead of just maintaining sufficient defences.

*According to Wikipedia, 'Genoese' Crimea was held from 1266 to 1474, Venetian Cyprus from 1489 to 1571, Venetia Crete from 1212 to 1669/1715 (fall of Candia/loss of all Venetian Cretan strongholds). 1475 AD is therefore chosen as a rough date where the eastern Med/Black Sea holdings sort of overlap. Sicily is thrown in as a freebie and to leave some flexibility for the player on how to meet the other goals. Cyprus in particular would essentially require an ahistorical conquest of the Levant to remove cultural pressure on the island, or pushing culture on Crete.

That said I don't actually recall if the Italian stability map has any of Crete, Crimea, or Cyprus as historical or conquest areas.

 

[manio curio]

Venice has pretty conquest-heavy UHVs in RFC Europe, off memory. The major one is conquering Constantinople by 1204, and being the first civ to complete a colonization project (in RFC Europe, these are projects that require access to a specific strategic resource to be built). Genoa has the import/export UHV where you need to generate a certain amount of gold from trading things (I think), and they also have a colonization/conquest UHV where they need to have a certain number of cities in the eastern Mediterranean / Black Sea.

My suggestion for UHV3 would be to split it into two goals, similar to other conquest UHVs for medieval civs that stretch into the early modern era (e.g. Burma). The second part would be what it is now to reflect the ambitions of Fascist Italy, while the new first part would be something like "Control three of Sicily, Crete, Crimea, or Cyprus in 1475 AD*." I think this goal would help push Italy into early/mid-game tension with Byzantium and the Ottomans, which is historical, and lead naturally to the later stage goal, while also requiring the player to push some overseas military action early (which IMO is the correct strategy anyways) instead of just maintaining sufficient defences.

*According to Wikipedia, 'Genoese' Crimea was held from 1266 to 1474, Venetian Cyprus from 1489 to 1571, Venetia Crete from 1212 to 1669/1715 (fall of Candia/loss of all Venetian Cretan strongholds). 1475 AD is therefore chosen as a rough date where the eastern Med/Black Sea holdings sort of overlap. Sicily is thrown in as a freebie and to leave some flexibility for the player on how to meet the other goals. Cyprus in particular would essentially require an ahistorical conquest of the Levant to remove cultural pressure on the island, or pushing culture on Crete.

That said I don't actually recall if the Italian stability map has any of Crete, Crimea, or Cyprus as historical or conquest areas.

Not a bad idea historically wise, but with the current map you wouldn't really get much in terms of productive cities in my opinion. Cyprus would also probably be squeeze by the mainland cities culture

 

[SOVNARKOM]

Not a bad idea historically wise, but with the current map you wouldn't really get much in terms of productive cities in my opinion. Cyprus would also probably be squeeze by the mainland cities culture

I don't think Cyprus is a big problem. If the Turks and Mongols work hard enough, you have enough opportunity to destroy the cities on the mainland around the island of Cyprus after their collapse

 

[Orbii]

Not a bad idea historically wise, but with the current map you wouldn't really get much in terms of productive cities in my opinion. Cyprus would also probably be squeeze by the mainland cities culture

Agree that Crete and Crimea are not great cities (and I have posted before in this forum that Crete should stay mediocre), but Cyprus is actually not horrid even with just the Copper tile bonus. I also personally think that a UHV requiring some suboptimal play isn't a bad thing, as it results in meeting one UHV increasing the overall challenge of the civ. You see this too with many other colonial settling goals (see e.g. Portugal) and any gold-accumulation goal.