The Portugal Thread

[Maggy_domain]

Running single core city much better. 2x of core score

I'd even vouch for tripling it. Would help Portugal but also the Dutch and England

 

[NerfCothons]

Agreed that Ponta Delgada is terrible now. If it's not core it's not worth it. Same with the Azores. I suppose the Azores give you an easy sugar, but it also doesn't contribute towards the India trade UHV, so it just isn't worth it. Something needs to motivate Portugal to settle these two subpar places, but at the same time they were never large cities or major resource producers, which is how this game makes cities valuable. They both probably need a sea resource plus something else to warrant settlement. Maybe that something else is core, maybe it's a lot of Indian trade UHV tiles, maybe it's a sugar resource. It just plain feels bad to settle bad cities.

Way back, they were desirable settles because you could get them going before you unlocked carracks, so they helped you get to carracks faster. Now, you'd be crazy to settle either of these cities before you enter the renaissance because it'd take you hundreds of years to get the free renaissance buildings built in these hammer deserts. So, the question to me is how to incentivize founding these two colonies BEFORE the renaissance. The simplest way is to add more resources so they are a net benefit to your empire, but you create the problem of having major cities on these islands the rest of the game where there have never been major cities.

What if the Portuguese UP revolved around free buildings with founded colonies/settled settlers? From the beginning of the game new colonies get granary, aqueduct, harbor(if applicable), forge, library, lighthouse, and market. I think that's the Industrial era settlement package. It's a very temporary bonus as this is the starting package for everyone else after not too long. It incentivizes settling the crappy historic islands because with those starting buildings they are an asset. It allows settling in production deserts, which is necessary for many of Portugal's historic colonies, especially the islands the Indian trade UHV forces upon the player. It removes the warped strategy where you unlock carracks and move your settlers into position to settle but wait until you get the next tech to unlock the founding bonuses.

I also don't like the way Morocco works right now. Historically Portugal's first colony was Ceutia, which is completely impossible in 100% of 600 AD games because of Marrakesh so close, meanwhile Marrakesh isn't on historic territory. I would suggest that the Marrakesh tile be included in historic territory allowing a Ceutia type move early in the game.

Inspecting the French settler map you can keep them away from Brazil by settling two cities (Fortaleza and Sao Paulo). Meanwhile settling Santa Maria in the south blocks Montevideo from the Spanish (if they ever get to settling) and gets you two tobacco from the get go. The only other settling threat in Brazil is the Netherlands who don't spawn until you're nearly done.

Losing Mogadishu and Adan as historic territory is rough because both cities would be solid for the Indian trade UHV. It feels bad to settle bad cities and I hate having to settle these single tile islands that do nothing all game.

 

[AOS9001]

The early access to pre-built buildings upon settlement would be a HUGE boon. It’d naturally go obsolete in the industrial like the current power, but you’d get A LOT more mileage out of it than the 50-60 extra commerce in my game above. Maybe have it unlock with cartography as Sultan suggested a while back?

Agreed on Morocco, but all of North Africa is crazy strong right now. Moors UP + all that citrus and olives + their insane culture modifiers (what else causes them to permanently block the strait of Gibraltar from Marrakesh?) means you’re not touching Morocco unless you get lucky like I did. Iberia’s balance is tied to North Africa’s balance at the moment.

 

[NerfCothons]

Agreed on Morocco, but all of North Africa is crazy strong right now. Moors UP + all that citrus and olives + their insane culture modifiers (what else causes them to permanently block the strait of Gibraltar from Marrakesh?) means you’re not touching Morocco unless you get lucky like I did. Iberia’s balance is tied to North Africa’s balance at the moment.

Yeah, I don't think that it's realistic (nor desirable) to create a scenario where Portugal is plopping down settlers in Morocco, but if you have an army that can take Marrakesh I think it should be treated as historic.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Be aware that Colonialism further reduces Peripheral population in overseas Historical territory.

Running single core city much better. 2x of core score

If I'm interpreting Stability.py correctly the SingleCore rule no longer applies. Capital population seems to be factored in an extra time without respect to Era (Per log entry "Capital grants non scaling extra administration")?

Every city in the core adds to the expansion stability limit, and then that limit scales with the game era. The change here is that the capital additionally adds to the limit, but that addition does not scale with the game era. In effect it means that there is a bit more room before you get negative expansion strategy, but that effect becomes negligible with large cores and after the classical era.

In the handful of games I've played I haven't come close to the Expansion ceiling (IIRC!), or I can at least say I never saw the lil bad red numbers in the up in corner. Of course that took advantage of 2x Jail production which has been moved. I will tentatively maintain that if you're running into stability issues you just haven't won fast enough; all UHV deadlines are now *by* dates. Hehe we'll see how long I sing this tune after a few full games under the new regime .

 

[SultanRedSnake]

What if the Portuguese UP revolved around free buildings with founded colonies/settled settlers?

Yes!!!!! My idea has been (approximately) reproduced independently!

I've also been mulling over a UP that incentivizes and properly rewards early exploration and settlement in the direction of India (think something like getting the full benefits of a Renaissance-Era settler but with Cartography).

I also don't like the way Morocco works right now. Historically Portugal's first colony was Ceutia, which is completely impossible in 100% of 600 AD games because of Marrakesh so close, meanwhile Marrakesh isn't on historic territory. I would suggest that the Marrakesh tile be included in historic territory allowing a Ceutia type move early in the game.

Hot Take: Morocco is destined to be made a crucial part of the illusive 3rd UHV. It has crossed my mind sporadically in the past but @AOS9001's recent allusion to King Sebastian and his shared desire to see the obsessive Crusading drive reflected in the Portugal game somehow, brought the idea back into focus. Succeeding here would make the perfect "Aspirational"-type UHV the civ currently lacks. All details and specifics aside, if I could summarize a single goal of a redesign, it's to erase forever the totally unjustified notion of this zealous little Kingdom as nation of shrewd entrepreneurs and cunning merchants on a business venture.

 

[SOVNARKOM]

Can Moai statues be established in Ponta Delgada if converted to Pagan religious?

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Can Moai statues be established in Ponta Delgada if converted to Pagan religious?

No, regardless of scenario, or any requirement for that matter. I can't cite the specific game rule verbatim but it forbids any civ from building a wonder if the civ has discovered (or spawns with) the tech that obseletes the wonder.

 

[SOVNARKOM]

No, regardless of scenario, or any requirement for that matter. I can't cite the specific game rule verbatim but it forbids any civ from building a wonder if the civ has discovered (or spawns with) the tech that obseletes the wonder.

I remember game wikipedia mentioned that Moai statues won't obselete, but after my testing, it seems that even if I switch to Pagan religion, I still can't build Moai statue in Ponta Delgada(Perhaps only Polynesians can build it?)

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I remember game wikipedia mentioned that Moai statues won't obselete, but after my testing, it seems that even if I switch to Pagan religion, I still can't build Moai statue in Ponta Delgada(Perhaps only Polynesians can build it?)

Good catch. Yes indeed it has no obseletion by tech.

A search of the entire Git log returned entries that mark specified sets of wonders as "Expired" per Scenario. Maoi, among others, may only be built if game is run on 3000BC Scenario. These findings don't satisfy exhaustion to rule that Portugal can't build Maoi but I'm stopping with this pursuit here for want of interest. The project's likelihood, cost, and return ledgers add up to a Meh Sandwich.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Fellow Portugueezers: latest Git seems to have put Sub-Saharan Africa exclusively in the TC conqueror crosshairs.

 

[AOS9001]

I'm not so sure about that, in the game I just ran it kept targeting an awful useless Western Sahara city, Ceylon, and Malacca as usual. I deleted that Saharan city in WB to see what happened, and it switched targets to Mbanza Kongo. Didn't matter when I built it or how many times I reloaded, it kept targeting those three cities. I'm starting to wonder at what point the game decides what targets you'll attack?

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Thanks for testing. We can cross out "exclusively" then. I'm almost certain targets are determined on the turn in which TC mechanic is triggered (when player builds it or AI researches corresponding techs). In the past I do for sure recall an element of randomness (could reload and get different targets). I'm afraid I'm still quite limited in my ability to interpret Python (and don't want to bug Leoreth over secondary matters). I'm about to play a game myself and will report.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, that is because trading company conquerors are plugged into the game's event system. It is decided before the turn starts whether an event can fire and the cities need to be locked down at that point. So reloading the turn won't change the selection of cities.

 

[AOS9001]

Yes, that is because trading company conquerors are plugged into the game's event system. It is decided before the turn starts whether an event can fire and the cities need to be locked down at that point. So reloading the turn won't change the selection of cities.

That's about what I expected. I kept getting the same three cities no matter how many turns I waited to finish the TC, so I'm assuming something else is at play here. Maybe the war map is tied into it, I saw some changes in that file...

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, the war map is now used to pick the cities to target, instead of a predetermined list of targets for each civilization. That's why it's not 100% accurate right now.

 

[AOS9001]

That explains a lot about both Portugal and the other civs - I kept getting Jerusalem as a target when playing the other colonizers, but that was already reported in the bug thread so I made no mention of it.

 

[Leoreth]

It has already been addressed.

 

[The Turk]

I know it's off topic from the goal of the thread - but it would be nice to use the Conqueror event to simulate the Crusades - and rework the Arab UHVs accordingly.

Since the Andalusians exist, I don't see why the Arab UHV should include conquering all of N. Africa and Spain for instance. Could be reworked in the light of having to deal with the extra challenge of Turkic/Frankish invaders from West/East in the 11th century onwards.

In any case, happy this thread exists, as Portugal's gameplay has really suffered on the larger map. Iberia in general with the powerful Andalusians is a rather strange place currently.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I know it's off topic from the goal of the thread

Then I must ask why you posted here. Please delete and repost in relevant thread. We're trying to stay organized.