flamingzaroc121
Emperor
yo you guys, stop arguing, i think the Prat is the most useless unit, one axeman and you are close to dead, but some of you have your own opinions, dont try to force your opinion ont some on else.
The least effective unit
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Xanikk999
History junkie
Musketmen and ironclad get my vote.
flamingzaroc121
Emperor
i did a little test to prove my theory.
On Grassland 9/20 Axemen died Attacking a Prat
On Grassland 14/20 Axemen died Defending against a Prat.
So if your axeman is attacking (on open land) you have about 55% chance of winning. if you are defending (on open land) you have about 30% chance of winning. so if you have superior tactics you can win. but if you just attack at random, you are going to lose
On Grassland 9/20 Axemen died Attacking a Prat
On Grassland 14/20 Axemen died Defending against a Prat.
So if your axeman is attacking (on open land) you have about 55% chance of winning. if you are defending (on open land) you have about 30% chance of winning. so if you have superior tactics you can win. but if you just attack at random, you are going to lose
aelf
Ashen One
And are easily countered by pikes. And receive no defensive bonuses. And require iron and horses.
Shallow strength comparisons yield little insight.
Your sample is too small, flamingzaroc121.
Assuming neither axe nor praet is promoted, we have 8 vs [5*1.5] 7.5 attacking, 5 vs 5.33 [8/1.5] defending. R=1.07 in both cases. And R is all that matters when both units are in full health. Checking Combat Explained article, we find the odds about 63% for Praetorian - whether attacking or defending.
If you promote axe and praetorian with same promotions, R stays the same both attacking and defending (yes, C1 axe vs C1 praet is same chance as both unpromoted, as is with both being C1Shock).
What you need to do is have multiple shock axes attacking a praetorian stack where few (less than attacking axes) praetorians are promoted to shock (for stack defense against axes) with rest being CR. That way the axes gain upper hand as soon as the stack defenders have been wounded.
Assuming neither axe nor praet is promoted, we have 8 vs [5*1.5] 7.5 attacking, 5 vs 5.33 [8/1.5] defending. R=1.07 in both cases. And R is all that matters when both units are in full health. Checking Combat Explained article, we find the odds about 63% for Praetorian - whether attacking or defending.
If you promote axe and praetorian with same promotions, R stays the same both attacking and defending (yes, C1 axe vs C1 praet is same chance as both unpromoted, as is with both being C1Shock).
What you need to do is have multiple shock axes attacking a praetorian stack where few (less than attacking axes) praetorians are promoted to shock (for stack defense against axes) with rest being CR. That way the axes gain upper hand as soon as the stack defenders have been wounded.
dragomaster
Warlord
Musketeers and knights is a deadly combination, speed and power., ironclads is a bad unit, i ralrly need to build it, better to build frigates
Well...Crossbowmen do not have much advantages against Macemen... in terms of strength only (6x1.5 vs 8) But you have to look into their first strikes and drill promotion.
No melee units are immune to first strikes, and crossbow can kill them unharmed or little harmed with first strikes
With Drill II, they can have 2-3 first strikes.(For protective crossbow, they can have Drill III with exp 5 ... 2 to 5 first strikes) You can guess how hurt is it
?
(p.s. Chu-ko-Nu could have 3-6 first strikes with Drill III...And they are already protective...)
No melee units are immune to first strikes, and crossbow can kill them unharmed or little harmed with first strikes
With Drill II, they can have 2-3 first strikes.(For protective crossbow, they can have Drill III with exp 5 ... 2 to 5 first strikes) You can guess how hurt is it
?(p.s. Chu-ko-Nu could have 3-6 first strikes with Drill III...And they are already protective...)
Strato
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2004
- Messages
- 163
Learnt the hard way with ironclads... In fact, I don't think I even bothered with Ironclads in Civ II or III either. It was normally a jump from frigate to destroyer from memory. The memories...
Musketmen really need something more going for them, compared against rifles. I don't think I've ever really had a chance to build one before I start moving onto rifling. Civ II I remember marked a time when musket's were effective, the first gunpowder unit with a defence higher than 2? From memory, it was 3, but still a good deal effective for that game. Certainly doesn't apply with Civ IV however.
Musketmen really need something more going for them, compared against rifles. I don't think I've ever really had a chance to build one before I start moving onto rifling. Civ II I remember marked a time when musket's were effective, the first gunpowder unit with a defence higher than 2? From memory, it was 3, but still a good deal effective for that game. Certainly doesn't apply with Civ IV however.
Ironclads would be ok if they'd just had a greater movement range, i.e.
still have to stick to territorial waters but with a move of 4 or 5. This
way they could be a roving frigate/gallon fleet smasher protecting your
coastline. If only you could set up an 'Intercept' option for ships too?
A Ironclad's lack of speed & range = total waste of space. IMHO
Cheers
Elras
still have to stick to territorial waters but with a move of 4 or 5. This
way they could be a roving frigate/gallon fleet smasher protecting your
coastline. If only you could set up an 'Intercept' option for ships too?
A Ironclad's lack of speed & range = total waste of space. IMHO
Cheers
Elras
yep, the movement are too low.
That's why I build them only in cities with drydocks, with either a MI or under vassalage or theocracy (for navigation promotions).
It works great with the circumnavigation bonus too and with the viking UB
.If you manage a 5 moves ironclad, you can really use it
yep, the movement are too low.
That's why I build them only in cities with drydocks, with either a MI or under vassalage or theocracy (for navigation promotions).
It works great with the circumnavigation bonus too and with the viking UB
If you manage a 5 moves ironclad, you can really use it
Ok granted if your talking the Vikings + the Circumnavigation Bonus (which is a shoe in for the Vikings anyway
) + Flanking + Navigation I + IIpromotions then Ironclads are worth it.
But for all the other circumstances they simply suck a$$
Flanking + Nav I I've tried and it's doesn't really help..it just makes the
Frigate fights (who usually have Combat I & II) a little too even for my
liking.
So to conclude, Ironclads in one word.....No!
Cheers
Elras
Wodan
Deity
Ironclads are great for coastal defense. Who cares about movement when the task is to defend your sea resources?
Personally I usually want the AI to land troops. That way I have an unsupported clump of enemies I can clean out and get easy XP, plus it weakens his "disposable" troops so when I counterattack his empire, it's much easier.
Wodan
Personally I usually want the AI to land troops. That way I have an unsupported clump of enemies I can clean out and get easy XP, plus it weakens his "disposable" troops so when I counterattack his empire, it's much easier.
Wodan
pbfloyd
Chieftain
The biggest wastes of space for my style of military are:
1.) Warriors (Almost immediately out dated by the Axe man).
2.) Grenadiers.
3.) Musket Men (Riflemen are only a few turns down the road).
4.) Frigates & Iron Clads (Like Warriors, they are quickly out dated).
I stick to the American style of mass build up, and cycle the outdated troops to the front lines, if they can not be upgraded into the next gen.
Thus, Warriors, Grenadiers, Musket Men, Iron Clads and Frigates do not allow me to build and use them in mass.
1.) Warriors (Almost immediately out dated by the Axe man).
2.) Grenadiers.
3.) Musket Men (Riflemen are only a few turns down the road).
4.) Frigates & Iron Clads (Like Warriors, they are quickly out dated).
I stick to the American style of mass build up, and cycle the outdated troops to the front lines, if they can not be upgraded into the next gen.
Thus, Warriors, Grenadiers, Musket Men, Iron Clads and Frigates do not allow me to build and use them in mass.
It all depends on what type of map you are using and what you are doing. On fractual maps, I often find it possible to send ironclads out to distrupt my enemy. True, they cannot enter ocean squares, but they are deadly against frigates. Galleys are completely necessary. If not for galleys you would be limited to your continent for half the game. If you really think a unit is completely useless. I recommend you play a game and build a lot of that unit and see what you can do with it. Decades have been spent developing the Civ series, do you actually think they would keep a unit in if it was useless? I suspect people who find something useless use the same strategy in every game the play. Expand your mind.
pigswill
fly (one day)
When discussing best/worst units its worth considering preferred research/tech paths. I generally go for machinery earlyish for maces so I tend to build crossbows instead of longbows. I also tend to go for cannons early and grenadiers are on the way there, crossbows also upgrade to grenadiers (but longbows don't) which can be useful if you're suddenly faced with an invasion.
It would probably be more accurate to re-title this thread 'most/least favourite units'.
It would probably be more accurate to re-title this thread 'most/least favourite units'.
Ankh-f-n-Khonsu
forth-speaker of Mentu
Possibly even 'units I have become accustomed to, or disregard entirely'
jkp1187
Unindicted Co-Conspirator
In defense of the crossbowmen, they become available with Machinery. If you're beelining up the 'get optics/astronomy ASAP' tech tree, crossbowmen are a godsend. And they are quite handy against the occasional maceman.
I think the issue with Musketmen has less to do with it's abilities and more to do with the fact that Rifles and Grenadiers come too quickly after it's introduction. IMO, this can be solved by pushing back Grendiers and possibly even rifles.
Ironclads are very nice as a support force to your Frigates in the Industrial age. Unfortunately, a navy based soley on Ironclads is going to be out maneovered by the enemy's Frigates. They can however play a defensive role by themselves.
Crossbowmen, as I said earlier, are the counter for Axes and Maces. As much as Human players love those two units, I would think that Crossbows would be more popular in PvP games, however I've never played them.
Grenadiers need to be pushed back a bit, IMO, perhaps make Nationalism/Chemistry prereqs for them.
The dominace of Knights is far too short, They need to be pushed up slightly, or Calvary need to be pushed back, however I favor the former. Perhaps make them available with Civil Service/Fuedalism/Horseback Riding with Iron/Horses.
I also think that Infantry could be pushed back a little bit, closer to Tanks/Marines. The gap between Rifles->Infantry is shorter than the gap between Infantry->Tanks. Infantry need to share a prereq with thier current one (is it Industrialism?)
Ironclads are very nice as a support force to your Frigates in the Industrial age. Unfortunately, a navy based soley on Ironclads is going to be out maneovered by the enemy's Frigates. They can however play a defensive role by themselves.
Crossbowmen, as I said earlier, are the counter for Axes and Maces. As much as Human players love those two units, I would think that Crossbows would be more popular in PvP games, however I've never played them.
Grenadiers need to be pushed back a bit, IMO, perhaps make Nationalism/Chemistry prereqs for them.
The dominace of Knights is far too short, They need to be pushed up slightly, or Calvary need to be pushed back, however I favor the former. Perhaps make them available with Civil Service/Fuedalism/Horseback Riding with Iron/Horses.
I also think that Infantry could be pushed back a little bit, closer to Tanks/Marines. The gap between Rifles->Infantry is shorter than the gap between Infantry->Tanks. Infantry need to share a prereq with thier current one (is it Industrialism?)
InvisibleStalke
Emperor
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