The liberty tree is too strong

[Bezurn]

I think tradition needs an additional 1 (or 2) culture per 10 people added to the 1 happiness per 10 people. As it is liberty can beat out tradition in culture generation pretty easily with 1 per city (helloooo puppets) and the reduced policy cost pick.

Maybe have the oligarchy pick also give free walls in first two cities or something like that. That would help a bit with the hammer disparity between the two trees.

 

[Mesix]

Free culture for every barbarian I kill? Free gold for every unit I kill? Bonus to producing melee units? Happiness just for garrisoning a unit I was going to garrison anyway?

Yes please Mr Honor.

Liberty is indeed a powerful tree for many plays, but the other two have their place and benefits that in specific games knock the stuffing out of Liberty.

Don't underestimate the free for the garissoned units. With an ealy war, it is like having a free monument in newly conquered cities. In a recent game I played Darious and did an early Immortal rush. After finishing Honor, I started into the Liberty Tree. The conquered cities were cranking out 3 every turn without any buildings.

 

[hix]

I have to agree that the level you play makes a huge difference. For Deity, you really do need that second city up very quickly to stop the bleeding against the AI. True, you can buy it or build it, but you are not going to get your military strong enough to survive the early war...or at least not to win it.

I will *very* occasionally use Honor in a Deity game, (my current Roman game I was forced into a turn 22 war ) but the choice was between getting a great general or being eliminated very quickly.

I do feel the effects of the loss, however...no free Renaissance tech, improvements take forever, slower science start, (dragging in medieval a bit) but I have managed to overcome it through Ghandi's helping military hand.

I still have yet to win a Deity game without Liberty, but this might be the first.

 

[MkLh]

I have to agree that the level you play makes a huge difference. For Deity, you really do need that second city up very quickly to stop the bleeding against the AI. True, you can buy it or build it, but you are not going to get your military strong enough to survive the early war...or at least not to win it.

Yeah, the main point of the liberty free settler probably is that it really is the fastest way to get your second city up. Only on deity you really need to get your second city ASAP though. In fact I usually build my second city after I've finished NC as I don't want to waste 400 to library (I play on Immortal). On Immortal and below you can just build (or steal) your first worker and buy your first settler and get equally valuable bonus from the tradition policy that gives you free culture buildings.

 

[vexing]

I usually build my second city after I've finished NC as I don't want to waste 400 to library

with a culture ruin (or preferably 2) you get your settler with liberty so early that you can hard build a library in the second city and only minorly delay NC

 

[Jaeger5]

Well, if I was playing Egypt, I would get Tradition/Aristocracy. That and with marble in your trade network would guarantee you any Wonder you wanted.

You also can't have Liberty at the same time as Order and Autocracy, so...

 

[The Pilgrim]

You also can't have Liberty at the same time as Order and Autocracy, so...

You're confusing Liberty with Freedom.

 

[Bamboocha]

Well, if I was playing Egypt, I would get Tradition/Aristocracy. That and with marble in your trade network would guarantee you any Wonder you wanted.

You also can't have Liberty at the same time as Order and Autocracy, so...

That was changed in the patch. Liberty is now compatible with everything and Order, Freedom and Autocracy are now mutually exclusive (and that's a good thing too, because it makes autocracy more worthwhile. It was also weird that you could take both freedom and order pre-patch, making you democratic and communist at the same time?!)

 

[Maktaka]

Technically communism is only a policy in regards to labor and government spending while democracy is a policy in regards to how a government is staffed. Theoretically they are not incompatible, but to date there hasn't been a communist nation which wasn't also a defacto dictatorship in regards to elections as well. Couldn't have those silly people voting for a capitalist, now could you?

 

[budweiser]

Technically communism is only a policy in regards to labor and government spending while democracy is a policy in regards to how a government is staffed. Theoretically they are not incompatible, but to date there hasn't been a communist nation which wasn't also a defacto dictatorship in regards to elections as well. Couldn't have those silly people voting for a capitalist, now could you?

It doesnt matter who casts the votes, it only matters who counts them, comrade.