The liberty tree is too strong

[Optional]

An easy nerf for Liberty: turn it upside down. If the free units were at the bottom instead of the top it would be a much less popular choice.

That would make the design a bit frustrating.
I see more in boosting the other policies.
Perhaps +5% towards buildings can easily be scrapped from Liberty, though, that wouldn't hurt.

 

[fmlizard2]

For me the Tradition v. Liberty argument boils down to:

I can steal a worker. I can buy a settler. I can pump more culture with buildings. I can get golden ages 5 different ways. I can work another hill.

But...

Tradition policies are the only way I can get fast border expansion, +15% wonder , double garrison strength, free units, and big % modifiers.

You can emulate lots of Liberty while taking Tradition. But not the other way around.

 

[qemist]

That would make the design a bit frustrating.

That's the idea. I should acknowledge Vexing posted a similar idea earlier. Putting Republic above CR would actually make Republic more useful as the extra hammer means more earlier. Actually it wouldn't be much of a nerf if you use Liberty with a delayed expansion strategy. I often don't want the settler that early anyway. Putting Citizenship under Representation would be a much bigger nerf.

I see more in boosting the other policies.
Perhaps +5% towards buildings can easily be scrapped from Liberty, though, that wouldn't hurt.

Everyone wants more. Sometimes for the good of the game we need to accept less.

 

[chazzycat]

For me the Tradition v. Liberty argument boils down to:

I can steal a worker. I can buy a settler. I can pump more culture with buildings. I can get golden ages 5 different ways. I can work another hill.

But...

Tradition policies are the only way I can get fast border expansion, +15% wonder , double garrison strength, free units, and big % modifiers.

You can emulate lots of Liberty while taking Tradition. But not the other way around.

That's really not true. Can you steal 25% faster improvements all game? Can you purchase a 50% discount to all settlers in the cap? Can you reduce the culture cost per city by 33%? Where's the +1 happy per city from tradition? Oh that's right you have to wait till your city is size 10. And....most importantly, does tradition give you a free great person?

 

[vonbach]

For me the Tradition v. Liberty argument boils down to:

I can steal a worker. I can buy a settler. I can pump more culture with buildings. I can get golden ages 5 different ways. I can work another hill.

But...

Tradition policies are the only way I can get fast border expansion, +15% wonder , double garrison strength, free units, and big % modifiers.

You can emulate lots of Liberty while taking Tradition. But not the other way around.

This is the reason I use tradition over liberty.

That's really not true. Can you steal 25% faster improvements all game?

In no time I'll have more workers than I'll need most games just by killing barbarians so its
not really an issue. As for the rest it doesn't take long before you have large effective
cities that can crank out settlers or temples as I please. With a little bit of planning
I don't need liberty. Though liberty is good for a mid game expansion phase.

 

[woodshadows]

That's really not true. Can you steal 25% faster improvements all game? Can you purchase a 50% discount to all settlers in the cap? Can you reduce the culture cost per city by 33%? Where's the +1 happy per city from tradition? Oh that's right you have to wait till your city is size 10. And....most importantly, does tradition give you a free great person?

You are still building cities by the time you get to the policy that decreases the cost for them by 33%? Impressive..

 

[vexing]

You are still building cities by the time you get to the policy that decreases the cost for them by 33%? Impressive..

you don't understand how representation works.

 

[woodshadows]

you don't understand how representation works.

How does representation work? Is the benefit retroactive then?

 

[vexing]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=426434#Pol5

 

[woodshadows]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=426434#Pol5

from that page:

I find it also worth mentioning that Representation works retroactively, contrary to what the policy text might seem to imply (i.e. it reduces the additional policy cost even for cities settled before you pick up the policy).

I did not know this, the text wasn't very clear and I don't go down Liberty often.

 

[Tabarnak]

Before last patch Tradition and Liberty were pretty equal thanks to Landed Elite as your third policy giving extra food in all cities. Now it's more obvious that Liberty is stronger than Tradition for most parts of the game. Sad but true.

 

[carbontaxes]

I'm somewhat sure that it's impossible to just come out and say "X Tree is OP" without first disclosing what level you are playing (Prince/King, or Immortal, or Deity) as well as your Map (Pangaea/other-than-Pangaea). Without doing this (but really it's about the level) it's baseless to declare a single tree as OP.

Immortal/Deity: I would suggest that actually finishing Liberty first is simply not an luxury you can afford on Pangaea, and also even highly dicey on Continents. I don't think it's OP but I'd agree with another poster that the openers have become too much of a subconscious crutch.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Putting Citizenship under Representation would be a much bigger nerf.

Putting both Representation and Meritocracy above Citizenship and Republic above CR is not a nerf but a murder.

 

[vexing]

I'm somewhat sure that it's impossible to just come out and say "X Tree is OP" without first disclosing what level you are playing (Prince/King, or Immortal, or Deity) as well as your Map (Pangaea/other-than-Pangaea). Without doing this (but really it's about the level) it's baseless to declare a single tree as OP.

that's untrue. with the exception of settler difficulty (where you can get free settlers via ruins thus reducing the potency of the free settler) difficulty makes nearly no difference in the strength of the trees.

 

[carbontaxes]

Then I would certainly challenge the idea that it's viable to finish Liberty first on Pangaea on Immortal/Deity on any given game. I would argue that it's not.

I think people are overestimating their empire trade routes, too hestistant to accept periods of mild unhappiness, overestimating the value of roads, and overestimating the the Great Person with finishing Liberty tree before doing anything else. It's far too probable that you will not survive or be put in an unwinnable position before that happens.

When I say probable, I mean the chance comes up too often to just say "I'm going all Liberty Tree first" and then suddenly you really wish you had only done the Settler or Worker policies and branched out, but it's too late. I just don't think the tree as a whole is over-powered.

 

[Barth]

Then I would certainly challenge the idea that it's viable to finish Liberty first on Pangaea on Immortal/Deity on any given game. I would argue that it's not.

I can't say for Deity, but going straight through Liberty on Immortal/Pangea is entirely possible. I do it pretty much every game unless I'm specifically trying an early rush with Honor, no reloads/rerolls, anything like that.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

Even with early warmongering such as with Rome, I still usually pick Liberty over Honor. The extra worker and settler is less time I have to spend recruiting them, and if you beeline Ironworking you can sync up when Iron is revealed and when you gain your free settler. If any Iron is near you can plop that settler directly on top and immediately have Iron to upgrade Warriors to Swordsmen. The production bonuses and trade route happiness is good for all the cities you pick up along the way. This way you don't have to keep several units garrisoned in your cities, keeping your offensive army big, and still get your policy tree's happiness bonus. This is pretty sweet early where you need as many units as you can fighting. That's completely ignoring the free great person of your choice which can be used in so many different ways. Liberty just has such great versatility while being very strong all-around.

The only thing that I really miss from Honor is the free Great General, its great to have one along from the get-go to add that extra punch on your first conquest. Later on when you're consolidating your empire and have units garrisoned, the happiness and culture from that and defensive buildings is probably better than Liberty's happiness policy. Then again, you may never want to build walls, castles, etc or be able to keep all your cities regularly garrisoned.. you lose the bonus if your garrisoned ranged unit attacks.

If you're not going to expand beyond 1-4 cities and want them as strong as possible, Tradition is much better. Of course, even here you can make a case concerning Liberty's free settler and 50% settler recruitment speed. Get those cities up early, and the production boost...

 

[carbontaxes]

Then I stand corrected.

 

[headcase]

I did not know this, the text wasn't very clear and I don't go down Liberty often.

Me neither. The representation description is very poorly worded.

 

[RD-BH]

I don't know ...
... +3 culture
... free opera houses
... +happiness (4x 20 pop cities = 8, +1/2 capital)
... 15% Wonder bonus (usually just when I need it the most)
... +gold (garrison and capital)
... +combat (garrison)
... a tasty buffet

I think some people make the mistake of taking tradition first.
I prefer to take liberty's worker then the policy cost decrease first.
Depending on the game I might pop into Honor for a bit.
But once I get to tradition, it pays for itself in record time.

...hmm, maybe tradition is too strong.