The main thing they need to improve for Civ 4

JVK

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 29, 2004
Messages
14
Since the ideas thread has ballooned to ridiculous size, I am sure my ideas will be drowned in the sea of random thoughts. So here's my input on Civ 4.

The thing that has been lacking in Civilization games until now is a sense of creativity on part of the creators. They study their history but the whole thing about this game is that you are re-writing history. All the units and city structures are based on the assumption that everything will go as it did in history. Lame.

Examples:

The Americans build the best fighter jet in the end, but remember that for a time it was the Germans who had dominance of fighter combat with the Me-262 jet. If you are the Germans and you're the most advanced, why should the Americans suddenly pull ahead with their ass-kicking fighter if they are significantly behind you (and you're just blowing cash on silly Future Techs because all the real technologies are gone)?

In other words, they need to account for these kinds of things. There should be no civilization who has a unique unit contemporary to the final era. If there were a Stealth FIGHTER unit (as in the F-22, not the pseudo-fighter F-117) then that could be the final air combat unit.

Next, while on the subject of air units, there is not a whole lot of realism. The first bomber is a B-17 and they skip over the B-52 jet bomber era and go straight to the Stealth Bomber. Now last time I checked the first bombers were in World War 1 and were clunky pieces of crap and we did not come out of World War 2 and invent a high tech flying wing. So what I'm saying is, first off, make the first era of planes include the biplane bomber and fighter, the second include a P-51 and a B-17, then make the Jet Age with the jet fighter and a new jet bomber based on the B-52.

Additionally, because the cold war ended prematurely, we never really utilized technologies that would have been suited to fighting it but in your civ game, you may damn well fight a war in the modern era versus a huge civilization, which means you should have the option to build B-1 supersonic bombers (capable of carrying nukes), SR-71 Blackbirds, and high-supersonic bombers like the XB-70 Valkyrie.

In the modern age, anyone who knows about modern warfare knows that treads are becoming passe. Wheels allow faster vehicles, they're cheaper to maintain, and don't break down as much. Thus, the final armor unit should be a tank based on this technology and given 4 instead of 3 movement points. Additionally future artillery should get at least 2 points so it does not putt along as though pulled by horses.

Now away from the subject of armies, there is also the issue of buildings. Why do the Germans build a forbidden palace that looks like it's Chinese? Why in the modern age are the cities' temples a bunch of Stonehenges? There needs to be more building variation based on time and place. If the Europeans make pyramids they should be made of grey stones, if the Aztecs build them they should be of the step design that they are in real life. Modern buildings show very little difference from each other but imagine if it were not the Europeans who first advanced into the modern age. Maybe skyscrapers would look totally different if it were the Aztecs who built them. That should be taken into account. Any building, whether it be a colosseum or a temple or a library or a barracks should be styled along those guidelines.

I don't have time to keep going on about this but I'll wrap up with another brief thought. Why do amateur spearmen do even one point of damage to an elite Modern Armor? Why does it take about ten reloads before a stealth bomber conducts a successful precision strike? The people who designed the combat system need to be fired and replaced because it's ridiculously unrealistic. Smart bombs are accurate about 95% of the time these days assuming the target is stationary. Therefore in the game 95% of your precision strikes should be successful, but in fact it's more like 10%.

Lame lame lame!
 
The only solution to your first point regarding the uu units, based on your assumption that the path of the game will not follow the path of history is just get rid of all the unique units.

You do have a point about the progession of fighter aircraft but that whole aspect of the game is in need of some serious work.

I really do not care about the visual representation of the buildings and improvements. It really has no bearing on to my on the game and I would rather see the programers work on bettering the AI so that it can avoid having to give it certain advantages to compete adequately against human players.

And if your modern armor continues to lose health repeadedly against spearmen, than me thinks it is time for you to move up a level.

edit: you are 100% correct about percision bombings, although my games never last long enough to use it.
 
Next, while on the subject of air units, there is not a whole lot of realism. The first bomber is a B-17 and they skip over the B-52 jet bomber era and go straight to the Stealth Bomber.
First, let me suggest that "realism" isn't really a strong part of the Civ games in general. I don't know that the air units suffer more from lack of realism than a lot of other game elements. The game's not really intended to be "realistic" - more "realistic-like".
But the air units and air warfare certainly aren't the strongest part of the game. I think the changes in Conquests help, but don't cure the problems.
Before before you go adding biplanes, plus 2 or 3 versions of piston fighters, and 3 or 4 levels of jets, think about the time scale. At the point in the game when these units become available each turn is one or two years. You'd barely have time to build your first Sopwith Camel before you discovered the technology to let you build a Spitfire. Then before you were finished with propeller craft you'd be a couple of generations into jets.
Because of the time scale, all units in Civ3 are really generic and meant to cover a fairly large range of development. The picture on the unit may look like a B-17, but it says "bomber" and it's intended to cover everything from clumsy Gotha biplanes of WWI to B-1's.
To have narrowly specific units like you suggest, the time scale of the game would have to be drastically reworked. That may be part of Civ4, but when the designers really get to work on the next generation Civ, they're faced with problems like this one. Changes can't be made independently because every element of the game effects several others.
 
Unfortunately, as with most opinions, not everyone will agree :)

Personally I have very few issues with Civ III, and therefore my #1 request for Civ IV would be to fix my personal #1 annoyance with Civ III:

Do something about diplomacy so that it is not carpal tunnel hell!

A) Solve the "More than 8 nations means you have to switch individuals 1 at a time to see / talk to them" issue

B) Allow a summary view so you can quickly and easily see how much money each has, what techs they have that you don't have and vice versa, whether or not they have a worker for trade, etc... Resources are already kind of visible on a previous screen (although they only show the trades that are possible in one direction).
 
a bit nit picky..however the list did make some sound some points-i too would like to see some ww1 style planes just for the graphics and too the building could either be eastern or western- without to much strain...but i for one am still impressed with the unique units and other things that were created- critics are always the ones that do nothing- yet rant about what was done...
 
@yeti - the diplomacy interface definitely could use some improvement. I can get behind your suggestions with no problem.
 
yeah american and aztec culture ALOT different. Combat system frustrates me at times too...
 
Wibill said about everything that I wanted to. Although you could possibly place 4 tiers of bombers in the game, its really not worth it considering the time scale. You would have to put in 4 tiers of tanks, put an extra two or three tiers of horse mounted units in there, etc. You might want them to portray your favorite unit type perfectly, but I doubt it will happen since they dont want to double the total ammount of units.
 
I think every civ should have multiple special units if they keep the concept of special units. In addition to special units, have a special "before their time" unit which is like a weaker version of a unit yet to be invented. Ideas include:

Germany: Panzer, V2 (BTT cruise missle), Me-262 (BTT jet fighter)

America: F-15 Eagle, SEALs (very high attack, marine capability, paradrop capability), Turtle (BTT submarine)

Greece: Hoplites, Epic Hero (BTT swordsman in bronze age), Scythian Archers (poison arrows, if they score a point of damage, instant death to foot units but it's considered an atrocity)

Rome: Legionary, skirmishers (2 movement squares, act as artillery with weak bombard or as warrior with one attack, one defense)

Vikings: Longboats (high mobility), Berzerkers

Japanese: Kamikaze plane (highly effective BTT cruise missle, requires reduction of population like worker), Yamato class (extra big battleship), Samurai

Just a few examples.
 
Problem is that hey're not enough turns in the game and i think that, honestly, they did the best possible job presenting the total technological capacity of humankind for written history. I would love to see an extended game too with more eras and units represented but then again not everyone is crazy enough about this game like us that will play through an extended version. I guess this way it is more marketable.
 
I think, when it comes down to it, you've got to choose between realism with fictional civs, or unrealism with real civs...
You can't - with current technology - build a game that allows for the depths of real culture and technology to be represented in full, so if you don't wanna involve real history with the fake history that you create in Civ, you need to play with fake civs, technology and units.
 
I think you should be able to select the time spam you want to play. I believe everybody has a favourite period of history, if your favourite is the 20th century you have to wait a lot of turns before it gets good for you. Reducing the time spam would make it possible to portrait the evolution of the units in the period. However this would mean they should deliver a lot of units right out of the box (but some of us would love to see that).
Selecting a particular period should be just another option in the game and it would mean a change in the form the game starts if you select an advanced age, maybe you could begin with one or two cities instead of a single settler which wouldn’t make sense to me.

There are some things that bother me about the advisors:
1. Domestic advisor: when you have more than about 20 cities, what she says is useless, you should be able to ask her about a particular city and she should give you a brief. Besides I don’t find useful the row of faces, I think it would be better to see the numbers: Happy/Content/Unhappy/Specialist.
2. Trade advisor: I would like this screen to help you keep track of your current links, not just what you sell or buy from others but also for how much.
3. Diplomacy: He would let you sell your 3 best cities for 1 gold and all he would say is: “That offer is probably acceptable”. Besides I would like also to be able to ask for a brief on a particular civ: How they feel toward me, current deals, Who they have deals with, etc.
 
Basically what you guys are saying is you'd need to add more turns and I say great!

Toward the end the turns are two years long. I say change it to one year then cut every other time span in half. That gives plenty of turns in which to develop new units. Realism and micromanagement geeks like yours truly will finally have a chance to flex our managerial skills and the faint of heart could turn on "classic mode" and play with the simpler unit set.
 
Two WWI era nasties that it just isn't history without : poisen gas and minefields. When you have artillery, or maybe an enabling tech, You should be able to tell your military adviser to arm those artillery with poisen gas. This would increase the bombard, add lethal land bombard, and ensure that population died in successful bombardaments of cities. Alternatively, every unit in a stack bombarded could be at risk of damage from the gas filled shells. This would be viewed as an attrocity and poisen your relationships with all civs long after you tell the minister of defense to stop using gas shells, but it could save you from being overrun.

The other WWI sin to incorporate - minefields. Workers would lay them, and they would be invisible. Units moving onto a mined square would take damage, cities working mined squares would risk population loss. Workers could clear them, although not safely, and after a certain number of turns they would start losing potency (mines become inactive and the chance of a unit or citizen setting them off decreases until it gets down to 1%, but to be safe they still have to be cleared). I think this would add realism, a tool that can be used offensively and defensively, and allow the effects of a war to linger long after the fighting, as in real life.
 
What i always felt is that the turns in the begining are not long enough to properly represent the ancient age. It shouldn't take you 500 years to take a city in two turns.
 
Originally posted by Punkymonkey
What i always felt is that the turns in the begining are not long enough to properly represent the ancient age. It shouldn't take you 500 years to take a city in two turns.

Yes, And it takes a setler 50 years to get to the next square.

What do you guys think about the advisors?
 
Why do amateur spearmen do even one point of damage to an elite Modern Armor?
If a enemy tank blasted a hole in the side of the Modern Armor, a spearman could poke his spear through the hole and stab all the crew.

I totally understand the point you're making though.
 
Some city improvements should be required to build certain units.
For example, to build an armoured division you would need that city to have a running factory.

Regarding the time scale, I have to agree with the rest of you. But how to make it fairly realistic without making a 1209876 hour game?

Also, units should have different strength/weakness vs. certain unit types, even inmunity. This way, a modern armor can be tagged as inmune to all ancient era units, thus releasing all of us from that ridiculous fear that gripples us each time we move that modern armor towards the front line of deadly spears.

AND, my #1 most wanted item that just dosen't seem to please any civ devs: MULTIPLE BUILD/RESEARCH QUEUES. Yes, that's right, I said it. Come and get me for my revolutionary thinking :p
There could be 2 type of production build queues:
  • 1. Millitary
    2. Non-millitary
You could choose specifically for each city the % of shields spent on each, or simply dictate national wide %s for all cities.
Regarding research, each lab (each city could have more than one) should be able to research a different project, or simply have all work together on one.

Cities should be able to share production points. This way, a city x could derive a certain number of it's shields to a connected friendly city, loosing a % of shields in the process.

Saw very good stuff in here :goodjob:
 
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