The Medieval Skeleton Mod
- Thread starter Le Sage
- Start date
Lazy Knight
Chieftain
Le Sage
Emperor
Excellent job, Lazy Knight. I will use it as a blueprint for the one I will implement in the mod. We'll see how it works out later and do according tweaks, but your ideas are really good thought-through and I thank you for them.
The Chivalry Branch can be expanded some, I think, to include things like the Arthurian Legend and Tournaments; things like that which no medieval mod should be without and which strengthen the recognition factor. I should also change the weird "Circus" building which vanilla civ supplies us with and create a jousting arena instead perhaps.
As for Steel, I don't think it should be included even if the Romans made use of early versions. I draw strong parrallells between Steel and the Industrial Revolution. Just renaming Steel won't be difficult either. I think most people would agree that Steel has no place in the Middle Ages.
I am still rather busy IRL, but I am working on the first draft of the mod whenever I have time. It will be great.
The Chivalry Branch can be expanded some, I think, to include things like the Arthurian Legend and Tournaments; things like that which no medieval mod should be without and which strengthen the recognition factor. I should also change the weird "Circus" building which vanilla civ supplies us with and create a jousting arena instead perhaps.
As for Steel, I don't think it should be included even if the Romans made use of early versions. I draw strong parrallells between Steel and the Industrial Revolution. Just renaming Steel won't be difficult either. I think most people would agree that Steel has no place in the Middle Ages.
I am still rather busy IRL, but I am working on the first draft of the mod whenever I have time. It will be great.
Le Sage
Emperor
In my experimental Tech Tree I've replaced Steel with "Plate Armour".
Good enough.
Did you finalize what units are going to be in the game? Especially interested into how you're handling Navy...
brianshapiro
King
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2003
- Messages
- 775
Siege tower -- would be a civilian unit, and give added attack bonus to units in adjacent tiles against cities, forts, and citadels
Monasticism/monastic tradition and Syncretism would have to be somewhere on the social policy branch relating to piety
The city specialists, instead of being the generic type artist/engineer/scientist/merchant, etc.. should be divided by guilds and medieval profession types ... ie mason/smith/alchemist/bard/monk/priest .. leading to different great persons, Great Mason, Great Bard etc...
Bardic tradition can be a social policy or tech, if its a tech it can enable the bard city specialist; if monastic tradition is a tech it could enable the monk city specialist, etc
Monasticism/monastic tradition and Syncretism would have to be somewhere on the social policy branch relating to piety
The city specialists, instead of being the generic type artist/engineer/scientist/merchant, etc.. should be divided by guilds and medieval profession types ... ie mason/smith/alchemist/bard/monk/priest .. leading to different great persons, Great Mason, Great Bard etc...
Bardic tradition can be a social policy or tech, if its a tech it can enable the bard city specialist; if monastic tradition is a tech it could enable the monk city specialist, etc
brianshapiro
King
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2003
- Messages
- 775
Yew trees for longbowmen, etc? Might be a little too much. Hemp for rope sounds good though, could make it a requirement for large ships..
Craig_Sutter
Deity
Just to throw a few ideas out there...
Heraldry could be a tech... with a College of Heralds national wonder (if that is still an option in CIV 5.
Resources... timber, flax, honey, barley, oats, pitch, peat, amber, charcoal... timber/flax(cloth)/pitch for building larger naval units (and perhaps pitch for some sort of fire catapult/trebuchet)
Buidlings... library replaced by scriptorium.
Bellmaking - needed as prereq for any gunpowder artillery techs since that was how the metal casting skill developed. Perhaps related to techs used for cathedral construction.
Some sort of elected rulership... thing/ding/althing were widespread in early medieval period and kingship was often elected for life rather than inherited. (ex... Saxon and Scandanavians and offshoots.
I'm just spitballing here, but these are some ideas that came out of civ 4 developed mods. I'll think of others later.
Heraldry could be a tech... with a College of Heralds national wonder (if that is still an option in CIV 5.
Resources... timber, flax, honey, barley, oats, pitch, peat, amber, charcoal... timber/flax(cloth)/pitch for building larger naval units (and perhaps pitch for some sort of fire catapult/trebuchet)
Buidlings... library replaced by scriptorium.
Bellmaking - needed as prereq for any gunpowder artillery techs since that was how the metal casting skill developed. Perhaps related to techs used for cathedral construction.
Some sort of elected rulership... thing/ding/althing were widespread in early medieval period and kingship was often elected for life rather than inherited. (ex... Saxon and Scandanavians and offshoots.
I'm just spitballing here, but these are some ideas that came out of civ 4 developed mods. I'll think of others later.
Craig_Sutter
Deity
Salt was also an important resource and could improve certain buildings such as grocer (again, this was in civ 4). It was an important preservative before refrigeration. In the EMA mod, it actually also added a movement point to naval units... presumably having salted meats could extend operating range.
Tin could be added... and important item for bronze, of course, and presumable for brass (out of which were made church bells and cannon).
Another possible tech would be Yeomanry (allowing longbows... plain old serfs didn't do this... it required free landholders of some kind).
I've mentioned the naval units previously... I had done exhaustive research on the development of sailing vessels... there was a mediterranian stream (using the triangular sail), and an atlantic stream (using square rigs). The longboat and the arab dow were the genesis of each of these methods... later, they were combined to form the caravel and galleon type ships which had combined triangular and square rigging. My previous post shows the progression in the development of naval units we used in the EMA mod. This entailed having different civs getting naval UUs based upon their geographical location within Europe, until the technologies were combined.
Anyhow, it was very interesting rationalizing naval development within a game context.
Tin could be added... and important item for bronze, of course, and presumable for brass (out of which were made church bells and cannon).
Another possible tech would be Yeomanry (allowing longbows... plain old serfs didn't do this... it required free landholders of some kind).
I've mentioned the naval units previously... I had done exhaustive research on the development of sailing vessels... there was a mediterranian stream (using the triangular sail), and an atlantic stream (using square rigs). The longboat and the arab dow were the genesis of each of these methods... later, they were combined to form the caravel and galleon type ships which had combined triangular and square rigging. My previous post shows the progression in the development of naval units we used in the EMA mod. This entailed having different civs getting naval UUs based upon their geographical location within Europe, until the technologies were combined.
Anyhow, it was very interesting rationalizing naval development within a game context.
Craig_Sutter
Deity
Some remarks about steel...
Damascus steel was well known for sword making... here is from Wikipedia>..
So well there was no industrial steel, there was steel used in the manufacture of some of the weaponry.
I would suggest perhaps iron and charcoal (a resource?) give rise to a steel resource (if this is possible in civ 5), which could in turn translate to a promotion that increases melee attack/defense values. Otherwise, it could be used to give rise to unit upgrades (example -- longsword to footknight)... (noble horseman to knight).
Damascus steel was well known for sword making... here is from Wikipedia>..
Spoiler :
So well there was no industrial steel, there was steel used in the manufacture of some of the weaponry.
I would suggest perhaps iron and charcoal (a resource?) give rise to a steel resource (if this is possible in civ 5), which could in turn translate to a promotion that increases melee attack/defense values. Otherwise, it could be used to give rise to unit upgrades (example -- longsword to footknight)... (noble horseman to knight).
Craig_Sutter
Deity
Another question...
how are extra-national bodies such as the Hanseatic League and the Teutonic Order going to be handled.
In EMA, the Hanseatic League was used in a spaceship victory... this was an approach I really never liked. In a mod I am working on, I'm using corporations to represent various Hansa. It works well given corporations are transnational in civ 4. Lacking such a mechanism in civ 5, how could the idea of independant league cities be translated into game terms? social policy? Perhaps granting of independence to certain cities with the acquisition of certain technologies? With some sort of benefit when this is done. I do not know enough of the mechanics of CIV 5 to make very good suggestions.
In EMA we had monastic orders that gave rise to Chapter Houses which were buildings that allowed construction of various crusader units. We did not differentiate between knightly orders. Anyhow, I think that knightly orders such as these need to be incorporated into the mod somehow as they were very significant and even controlled large amounts of territory (as in the case of the Teutonic Knights).
Perhaps city states can be used to represent such things as the Hanseatic League of the Knights. Is there a mechanism in civ 5 by which players can choose to make some of their cities into independent city states? Such a process could give rise to these types of organizations with certain benefits to the grantor of independence.
Or perhaps there might be a more subtle way of introducing such concepts.
how are extra-national bodies such as the Hanseatic League and the Teutonic Order going to be handled.
In EMA, the Hanseatic League was used in a spaceship victory... this was an approach I really never liked. In a mod I am working on, I'm using corporations to represent various Hansa. It works well given corporations are transnational in civ 4. Lacking such a mechanism in civ 5, how could the idea of independant league cities be translated into game terms? social policy? Perhaps granting of independence to certain cities with the acquisition of certain technologies? With some sort of benefit when this is done. I do not know enough of the mechanics of CIV 5 to make very good suggestions.
In EMA we had monastic orders that gave rise to Chapter Houses which were buildings that allowed construction of various crusader units. We did not differentiate between knightly orders. Anyhow, I think that knightly orders such as these need to be incorporated into the mod somehow as they were very significant and even controlled large amounts of territory (as in the case of the Teutonic Knights).
Perhaps city states can be used to represent such things as the Hanseatic League of the Knights. Is there a mechanism in civ 5 by which players can choose to make some of their cities into independent city states? Such a process could give rise to these types of organizations with certain benefits to the grantor of independence.
Or perhaps there might be a more subtle way of introducing such concepts.
Lazy Knight
Chieftain
I am happy this thread is getting so much attention.
If I understand Le Sage right, first are tech tree and social policies, which then already form an alpha version of the mod. I guess next in line should be buildings, units and specialists (which is just renaming of game content, and hopefully adding some art).
Presenting Knightly Orders / Monastic Orders / Hanseatic Leage as Militaristic / Cultural / Maritime City States should be pretty easy, but one should also determine where the framework mod stops and where a scenario begins.
As soon as a basic mod stands, we should be very careful with adding more stuff or introducing new concepts, if this is supposed to become a mod-framework. Maybe these concepts are more fitting to a Baltic / Crusades / Charlemangne mod?
Le Sage
Emperor
Thanks, Craig Sutter, for your inspiring ideas. I find them most useful. Heraldry, for instance, was something I never thought of including as a tech myself, but it does have a logical place. I also like Yeomanry and your insights about the Medieval ships are also appreciated.
The Hanseatic League and the Knightly Orders do have to be implemented in some way, but I've given them only a minor amount of thought as yet. Maybe I should give them general names and not name the Hansa or Templar Order directly, like "Trade Alliance" and "Knightly Order".
Right now, I'm trying to get the tech tree together and I am only in experimental stages as yet. I hope to have the foundations of the Medieval Skeleton out as soon as possible though, since I will be doing my own further Civ5 modding using it. I have a Fairy Tale 2 to make, you know.
The Hanseatic League and the Knightly Orders do have to be implemented in some way, but I've given them only a minor amount of thought as yet. Maybe I should give them general names and not name the Hansa or Templar Order directly, like "Trade Alliance" and "Knightly Order".
Right now, I'm trying to get the tech tree together and I am only in experimental stages as yet. I hope to have the foundations of the Medieval Skeleton out as soon as possible though, since I will be doing my own further Civ5 modding using it. I have a Fairy Tale 2 to make, you know.
I have a Huge European Map that is playable in Civ5 that includes everything from England to the northern half of Africa and from Russia to the Western half of the Middle East.
View attachment My Europe v.6.zip
I'm interested in helping with this project in any way that I can. I'm not a modder (would like to learn). The medieval era is my favorite era to play the game in. I have been playing your hundred year Mod.
Thanks for all of the hard work you have done thus far.
View attachment My Europe v.6.zip
I'm interested in helping with this project in any way that I can. I'm not a modder (would like to learn). The medieval era is my favorite era to play the game in. I have been playing your hundred year Mod.
Thanks for all of the hard work you have done thus far.
Le Sage
Emperor
Thank you kindly. The first version of this mod should be out soon. I just released the latest version of the Hundred Years' war, since I had prioritized an update of that, but now I can chew into this Skeleton mod with my back free. 
Yes ~ Thanks for that new version on the Hundred Years War ~ Already downloaded and getting a new game going! I hope you would check out the European map I posted ~ I wasn't sure if you had full workable map for all of Europe. Once again let me know if there is anything I can do to help with the project.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Units!
Melee
Levy Class: All the cheep units to help protect flanks or emergency defense but not really reliable. All are not well organized and weak to mounted. Can be promoted to Medieval Melee unit
Peasant (Warrior that can be a slow worker)
Levy Spearmen (No malus against mounted)
City Militia (Basic city militia, bonus defending city)
Spear militia (Late levy Spearmen)
Sword Militia (Late City Militia)
Medieval Melee Your standard melee soldiers
Formation Spearmen, with bonus v.s. not heavy cavalry
Heavy Spearmen with bonus v.s. all cavalry
Light Pikesmen, ect
Formation Pikesmen, ect
Halberdiers
Terico (spanish UU?)
Light Swordsmen = early medieval barbarian types bonus v.s spearmen types
Longswordsmen = Medium medieval trained types of mailine infantry, bonus v.s. pikes?
Armoured Swordsmen
or Heavy Swordsmen= Late medieval trained types of mailine infantry bonus v.s halbadiers?
Householder= early noble infantry
Squire = Med-mideival noble
Men-at-Arms= Late Mideival Noble
Cavalry
Chieftain's Cavalry Early Noble cavalry
Noblemen medium noble cavalry
Knight late noble cavalry
Light horsemen early mailine cavalry
armoured horsemen medium
lancer late
Sorry for the formating deterioration.
Basically, all troops have an Early/mid/late version, a Mailline/Noble or Cheap/Mail line version making 6 types of each kind of unit. Each unit will have similar but different bonuses than others, so players can mix and match for their favorate units to use.
All levies have a malus for Noblemen
All polearms have bonus for cavalry
All swordtype have bonus for polarms
All cavalry have bonus for swords (see?)
Melee
Levy Class: All the cheep units to help protect flanks or emergency defense but not really reliable. All are not well organized and weak to mounted. Can be promoted to Medieval Melee unit
Peasant (Warrior that can be a slow worker)
Levy Spearmen (No malus against mounted)
City Militia (Basic city militia, bonus defending city)
Spear militia (Late levy Spearmen)
Sword Militia (Late City Militia)
Medieval Melee Your standard melee soldiers
Formation Spearmen, with bonus v.s. not heavy cavalry
Heavy Spearmen with bonus v.s. all cavalry
Light Pikesmen, ect
Formation Pikesmen, ect
Halberdiers
Terico (spanish UU?)
Light Swordsmen = early medieval barbarian types bonus v.s spearmen types
Longswordsmen = Medium medieval trained types of mailine infantry, bonus v.s. pikes?
Armoured Swordsmen
or Heavy Swordsmen= Late medieval trained types of mailine infantry bonus v.s halbadiers?
Householder= early noble infantry
Squire = Med-mideival noble
Men-at-Arms= Late Mideival Noble
Cavalry
Chieftain's Cavalry Early Noble cavalry
Noblemen medium noble cavalry
Knight late noble cavalry
Light horsemen early mailine cavalry
armoured horsemen medium
lancer late
Sorry for the formating deterioration.
Basically, all troops have an Early/mid/late version, a Mailline/Noble or Cheap/Mail line version making 6 types of each kind of unit. Each unit will have similar but different bonuses than others, so players can mix and match for their favorate units to use.
All levies have a malus for Noblemen
All polearms have bonus for cavalry
All swordtype have bonus for polarms
All cavalry have bonus for swords (see?)
henryMCVII
Warlord
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2008
- Messages
- 237
Would paiting some basic art work for leaderheads making sense for this mod? Since we cant use just background pictures for leaders, im afraid there is not much use for.
What I was thinking about are some... generic, medieval looking leaders. But I also dont know, how to make them really generic, so that everyone can change the names (in some very easy way) to whatver he likes.
What I was thinking about are some... generic, medieval looking leaders. But I also dont know, how to make them really generic, so that everyone can change the names (in some very easy way) to whatver he likes.
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