The Medieval Weapons Mod - adding history and logic to the civ4 middle ages.

I think that if axemen base strength is decreased to 4, then their bonus vs. melee units should be increased to 100%, making them remain very effective against infantry for longer (up until the advent of macemen, and not falling out of usefulness sooner), but remain weak against archers and cavalry throughout.
 
I'm currently running them at 85%, I think I agree with you simply because reducing their base strength reduces the effectiveness of promotion, so they should get a bit higher starting value. 100% puts them at 8 vs melee troops which would make them very slightly edge out unpromoted legionairres and hold their own with pikemen (macers will still outclass them though but that's as it should be).

100% it is then.
 
Not reading the entire post I will respond to soem of the earlier ones.

The Phalanx of Alexander could arguably have beaten any army up to the gunpoweder eara. The generals under alexander did not truely understand the strenght of combined armed tactics. He used Heavy/Light infantry, Phalanx, and heavy and light calvary all playing critical roles in battle. The other commanders at the time had the same tools he did, they just did not understand how to utilzie them together. If you look at the trends in warfare after Alexander, the emphisis was placed on one Arm, and the others played secondary roles. There were brief resergancies of combined armed tactics, and all were succesful, but normally was phased out when the commanders that utilized them were gone.

If I remember right, both battles fought between Rome and Macedonia, the Macedonians had the upper hand until they reached broken ground, at whcih point holes formed in the lines which the Romans exploited. There is no way the Romans could have done what they did to a Alexander led Macedonian army. Hannibal and Alexander were very similar in that regard. Hannibal understood the value of Heavy ifnantry and calvary used together. The battle Hannibal lost, he did not have the same resources and calvary that he had in previous campaigns were he had been so succesful.

The Roman heavy infantry was made obsolete by Horse Archers, which dominated the battlefield and replaced Heavy Infantry as the primary tool of Military leaders.

The Legionarre were especially adept at repelling calvary charges. Heavy calvary was used for one purpose...shock. A diciplined block of dense infantry could withstand the shock impact of a Calvary charge. The success of a Heavy Calvary charge hinged on breaking the enemy formation and driving through and breaking them, cutting them down as they broke. Kataphracts and Midevil knights had very similar mass, and therefore had similar shock effects. Later Legionarres carred a different type of Pilum, in addition to the type that were ment to be thrown. This other type of Pilum was actually a short spear. There were several reported cases of calvary being driven off by Legionarres using the throwing type of Pilum as well.

Once Horse Archers started to dominate the battlefield, the Romans were forced to adapt, and the days of Heavy infnatry dominating the battlefield were over for a time. Next came the domination of Heavy Calvary, and then Heavy shock infantry made a return.
 
You know, the information that is being bandied about and used to refine this mod, while interesting, is all very Western-based and thus Western-biased. If we could get some aficianados on non-Western military-tech in on this thread that would be fantabulous.

In regards to looking beyond Europe, I think that the makers of Civ4 set up the tech tree with this more global view in mind, trying to mimic history as best they could while limiting the complexity. Certain medieval units are available without the Feudalism tech (namely Pikemen and Macemen), since feudalism was really a phenomenon that was limited to Europe, and only really arose elsewhere, coincidentally, in Japan. One of my methods for testing the strengths and weakness of the tech tree is to see if I can mentally reconstruct a civilization during a certain era of its history by mapping out the techs and units it would have. If China couldn't have medieval-level infantry without researching Feudalism (which they can), it wouldn't sit quite right with me. This is the same reason that the default tech tree bothers me with the Wheel being a requirement for roads and the pottery-tech -- "Hey, game devs, you know those Inca you included in the game? Guess what they had WITHOUT the wheel!" -- but the Wheel conversely being NOT required for mathematics OR construction. Ever seen a wheel-less catapult? Etc. etc. Don't get me started; a topic for another thread.

I've been looking at the tech tree in-game, studying it, and my mind boggles at the how exactly to arrange the units and preserve the historical paths by which major civilizations came by those units or their relative equivalents -- particularly since my knowledge on this is admittedly that of a layman.

A solution to the problem of that somewhat Eurocentric "Feudalism" tech could be as simple as changing the name to something slightly more universal. That was my approach to the tech in Civ3, where the nature of the more rigidly structured tech tree made it a more integral technology, or at least made it feel that way. That might not be the way to go in Civ4, since "Feudalism" IS the most reasonable and logical name for a technology that enables Vassalage and Serfdom.

Anyway, just thought I'd mention that Europe was not the only place where military history and and development took place. Encouraging a more holistic, global view and all that nonsense. ;)
 
OGGleep said:
Not reading the entire post I will respond to soem of the earlier ones.

If I remember right, both battles fought between Rome and Macedonia, the Macedonians had the upper hand until they reached broken ground, at whcih point holes formed in the lines which the Romans exploited. There is no way the Romans could have done what they did to a Alexander led Macedonian army. Hannibal and Alexander were very similar in that regard. Hannibal understood the value of Heavy ifnantry and calvary used together. The battle Hannibal lost, he did not have the same resources and calvary that he had in previous campaigns were he had been so succesful.

Well, Romans utterly destroyed phalanx many times. Many times when they fought against the Seleucids and Carthaginians.

The Roman tactics, however, were not only in the battlefield, so you can't say "if Hannibal had his cavalry Numidian cavalry troops he would have been victorius"... Roman tactics were also political, logistical and other types... Hannibal lost.

The Roman heavy infantry was made obsolete by Horse Archers, which dominated the battlefield and replaced Heavy Infantry as the primary tool of Military leaders.

:lol: Horse archers did not make Roman infantry obsolete, and it did not replace heavy infantry!

First of all, horse archers were very expensive. They did not require a lot of costly armour, but they did require training, very much training. To fire a bow from horseback and to do it effectivly required masterful horsemanship, and when the horse still moves, and you have to fire...:eek: this is why Europeans abandoned horse archery.

Now, when combined with standing archers, heavy infantry can deal with horse archers.

Parthians did not win Romans because of their horse archers, they won because they had enough resources and men to hold back the Romans.

The Legionarre were especially adept at repelling calvary charges. Heavy calvary was used for one purpose...shock. A diciplined block of dense infantry could withstand the shock impact of a Calvary charge.

The success of a Heavy Calvary charge hinged on breaking the enemy formation and driving through and breaking them, cutting them down as they broke. Kataphracts and Midevil knights had very similar mass, and therefore had similar shock effects.



Later Legionarres carred a different type of Pilum, in addition to the type that were ment to be thrown.

No, late Roman legionaries used the Kontos, which was a pike-like weapon devopled from a lance, if they faced cavalry armies. Roman legionaries carried javelins and the Plumabatarii carried small, deadly darts which could be carried tetached to the back of their shield.

There were several reported cases of calvary being driven off by Legionarres using the throwing type of Pilum as well.

Maybe, but they probably used the Contos
Once Horse Archers started to dominate the battlefield, the Romans were forced to adapt,

When did the horse archers dominate the battlefield? The Goths didn't use them, Germanics didn't use them, Vandals didn't use them, Sassanids reduced their use significantly ETC.

Only Huns, Sarmantians and some other steppe peoples used horse archers in mass. This is why Romans didn't train horse archers in large scale.

and the days of Heavy infnatry dominating the battlefield were over for a time. Next came the domination of Heavy Calvary, and then Heavy shock infantry made a return.

Well, Romans didn't start to train cavalry, in even more larger scale then before, because they couldn't beat the enemy enemies. They trained them because they needed more mobile armies to counter the Germanic mobile armies.

The infantry was made more lighter, so it could march faster and could run with the heavy cavalry. The Romans, BTW, took this tactic in to use before they started to face the steppe cavalrymen.

Roman infantry was not made obsolete by the heavy cavalry, Roman infantry continiued to be very important part of the army and very successful.
 
Dracleath said:
They are as of now and would be similarly effective after the change I'm proposing, I'm just taking one strength away and converting it into a general bonus against melee units.

Oh, BTW, I dont care. Its your mod do whatever you think is right.:p
 
Well, one plus about making things more feudalism dependent as per this mod is that it does provide a structure in which things did evolve in real life, even if they did not evolve that way everywhere.

The default settings are quite silly and seem like they just randomly dispersed the units among techs that come at sort of the appropriate time.

Macemen with civil service and machinery? Exactly how much machinery is involved in attatching an iron head to the end of a wooden or metal stick?

Pikemen with engineering? Que? Pikemen evolved primarilly because militaries looking for a way to make common soldiers effective against knights discovered classical texts on macedonian phlanxes and emulated them. They didn't evolve because leonardo da vinci came up with some magical superpike.

Knights with guilds? Could there be any more completely unrelated things in the entirety of medieval history?
 
Personally I'd like to see you keep it simple Dracleath, release something, and then let playtesting fiddle with it. You can balance gameplay with history with Civ4 limitations eventually.
 
Ok, I've released what I consider to be the best way of arranging things as far as units go for the medieval and ancient ages, I'll probably let people play it and see if there are any comments.
 
Excellent! If there is any disagreement then people can alter your mod for themselves. I know I usually did in Civ3.

Good work Dracleath.
 
Dracleath said:
Well, one plus about making things more feudalism dependent as per this mod is that it does provide a structure in which things did evolve in real life, even if they did not evolve that way everywhere.

The default settings are quite silly and seem like they just randomly dispersed the units among techs that come at sort of the appropriate time.

Macemen with civil service and machinery? Exactly how much machinery is involved in attatching an iron head to the end of a wooden or metal stick?

Pikemen with engineering? Que? Pikemen evolved primarilly because militaries looking for a way to make common soldiers effective against knights discovered classical texts on macedonian phlanxes and emulated them. They didn't evolve because leonardo da vinci came up with some magical superpike.

Knights with guilds? Could there be any more completely unrelated things in the entirety of medieval history?
Just to be clear, I was NEVER suggesting that the default tech-tree is better, or even all that great. I was merely pointing out that it is the way it is for a reason, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon, or that we shouldn't try. And, I was hoping to bring a more global perspective to things -- on average, I would say I play more frequently as non-European civs than as European ones, so I like to include them in my considerations when making these kinds of modifications.

My own proposed solution to the "Feudalism problem," which I came up with ironically soon after my above post about it, involves adding a new tech, "Fealty," in between Monarch and Feudalism. In case you're interested, I described it at the bottom of page 6 of the "Realism Mod" thread, which I've linked here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137650&page=6

On a related note, not that I condone the placement of pikemen with Engineering, but I would say it's pretty likely that medieval societies would never have developed engineering in the first place if it weren't for that same ancient learning that taught them about phalanx formations. I suppose you could argue that the two are unrelated, but if classical texts had remained in obscurity because they were "heathen," then there would have been no Engineering OR Pikemen.
 
The big change from the Ancient-to-Medieval in warfare was the adaption of Stirrups by the Europeans people. It was invented in China, and bring to Europe by the avars, the Huns and other nomadic people. The stirrup allow a Heavy Calvary attack; direct, frontal. The stirrup gives stability to the rider, making the hands free to attack. This system were Highly effective during the Dark Ages and Early Medieval Ages, because the main army of those times where short-range infantry, like swordsmans, axemans and Huscarls. But the Knigths were expensive and based in a chilvary code, so their number in battles were often small but decisive. And because of the heavy nature, they were basicly outflanked againts armies like the Mongols or the Ottomans. In the same model were desing the Cathrapacs of the Byzantines. The complete dominance of Knights developt alternatives to minimize their impact. The Crossbow and the English Longbow were made massive in order to stop the charge, eather Knights or un-mounted heavy infantry. Infantry became either heavier or lighter, like skimechers. The re-adoption of polearms (pikemans and halbediers) to the battlefield was a mayor change during the late medieval ages, and was efective againt calvary, but vulnerable to infantry and range units. That stayed until gunpowder, and the rise of the cannon and the musket.
 
about: Axemen: Base strength = 4, bonus to melee = 85%, since is reasonable, but consider negate effect for stupid AI, i think if not necessary the "bonus vs XX" should not more than 75%...

the vanllina verson is ok, or just low down 10% precent bouns?
 
Some of the improvements that need to be made to the ancient units in particular could be facilitated if there was an additional category of units.
Melee, mounted, and archer just doesn't cut it, melee needs to be broken down into offensive melee (swords,axe) and defensive melee (spear).

Anyone know if this is possible, I know civ4 is supposed to be very mod friendly, can this be done or is the unit categories hardcoded?

For that matter are the promotions moddable, in other words, can you create new types of promotins, obviously the effects you can choose from are probably hardcoded, but this would be another avenue for improving the combat.
 
Units Categories:

Meele: Warrior, Swordsman, Axeman, Maceman

Polearms: Spearman, Pikeman, Halberdier

Ranged: Archer, Crossbowman, Slinger

Mounted-Light: Horse Archer, Hussars

Mounted-Heavy: Knights, Cathrapachs

Siege: Catapults, Ballistas, Trebuchets, Rams
 
Axemen need a counter in the Ancient Period, not more bonuses. Giving them +100% melee is a sick and twisted plan!

Considering that Archers have strength 3, chariots have 4, and mounted archers a measly 6, axemen (with strength 5) were certainly out of wack as these were their only counters.

Although you have (properly) lowered their str to 4, you have increased their bonus even further! No matter how dangerous you think axes are or were, you cannot believe that they were the dominant weaponclass in any army (as any unit with an effective str of 8 will rapidly become). A 4+50% bvm starts off well prepared to take down melee units. With a few promotions, it will be more than capable of maxing out the value of that bonus. But the massive advantage a 4+100%bvm would have against the primary units of most armies is simply disgusting!


In regards to looking beyond Europe, I think that the makers of Civ4 set up the tech tree with this more global view in mind, trying to mimic history as best they could while limiting the complexity. Certain medieval units are available without the Feudalism tech (namely Pikemen and Macemen), since feudalism was really a phenomenon that was limited to Europe, and only really arose elsewhere, coincidentally, in Japan. One of my methods for testing the strengths and weakness of the tech tree is to see if I can mentally reconstruct a civilization during a certain era of its history by mapping out the techs and units it would have. If China couldn't have medieval-level infantry without researching Feudalism (which they can), it wouldn't sit quite right with me.

Patently false. The warlordism of the Medieval Period in European history developed all over the world. In specific, the Chinese bureaucracy was a famously feudal system, in which suzerain states were awarded for high scores and faithful service.

A perfect literary example of the feudal structure in China would be the Romance of the Three Kingdoms... basically, read the wiki article that I linked it to if you haven't read the books.

The problem with the Western view of Feudalism is that it refuses to see it as warlordism with pretty names. Africa, for example, is currently in the throes of this very phenomenon... but I digress.

... also, because I am a commie bastard, read this article about the modes of production if you want some more evidence. Uncle Karl has to come into this! ;p

EDIT: Just realized you guys might think I'm crazy, but I'm part of the 'broad interpretation' school with regards to the term feudalism.

PPS: I heart wiki! ;p

The big change from the Ancient-to-Medieval in warfare was the adaption of Stirrups by the Europeans people. It was invented in China, and bring to Europe by the avars, the Huns and other nomadic people. The stirrup allow a Heavy Calvary attack; direct, frontal.

Nope! The real big change was mentality and organizational ability. Instead of mass armies of well trained soldiers, the Middle Ages got us small numbers of individual fighters (usually called knights, but far more commonly mounted sargeants at arms or men at arms). As the pike showed, and as Francois I showed at Marignano, cavalry is fairly useless except in a support role. In fact, at Marignano Francois famously ordered his knights dismounted (who were thereby forced into greater obedience), which directly resulted in his victory over the Swiss Pikes.

You don't have to believe, but here is another way of looking at it:
1) Cavalry has always been the smallest branch of any non-nomadic people.
2) The most famous and deadly cavalry armies, those of the Huns, Saracens, Mongols, and Persians (Sassanids, I believe, in this case) were not, in fact, heavy cavalry. They were light cavalry using horsebows, and they managed to effectively steamroll everything that opposed them.
3) Agincourt and Crecy. nuff said. Disciplined infantry, dismounted knights, and archers.


edit: Changed Swedish to Swiss...
 
Quoth wikipedia about bronze vs iron:

Bronze was also stronger than iron, another common metal of the era, and quality steels were not available until thousands of years later. Nevertheless the Bronze Age gave way to the Iron Age as the shipping of tin around the Mediterranean ended during the major population migrations around 1200 – 1100 BC, which dramatically limited supplies and raised prices. Bronze was still used to a considerable extent during the Iron Age, but for many purposes the weaker iron was sufficiently strong to serve in its place. As an example, Roman officers were equipped with bronze swords while foot soldiers had to make do with iron blades.

That's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze, which I happened to have read a few days ago (I only just noticed this thread today). Of course, perhaps it's not accurate, in which case perhaps someone with more knowledge of that could correct it... It is, after all, wikipedia. :P

Rather than trying to tweak axemen, swordsmen, etc, based on what materials various civilizations used, what do you think about actually giving bonuses for using steel or bronze for those units, and requiring you to have city buildings, for example a "steelworks", which adds a special upgrade to certain kinds of units built in cities with said buildings. There could also be a bronzeworks which gives a upgrade which isn't as good as steel's - also this upgrade wouldn't be added if you have a steelworks, since it would be bizarre to benefit from having both a steelworks and bronzeworks.

Since most units which require a metal require either iron or bronze, it could be set up like so (Numbers are arbitrary and can be adjusted for game balance, but I've tried to be conservative - little adjustments can have a large effect over many turns of war):
A new resource, tin.
bronzeworks or forge is required for building metal-requiring units, as well as either copper+tin or iron.
bronzeworks: Requires forge. If you lack steelworks but have copper and tin, adds +10% strength upgrade to units built at this city.
steelworks: Requires Forge, Steel tech. If you have iron, adds +20% strength upgrade to units built at this city.

The units it would affect would be only melee and mounted units which require metal to build. Later units (armor, gunships, etc) would require steelworks, unless it becomes obsolete later to simplify things.

Tin could be abstracted out if that seems better, and probably that's why it doesn't exist in vanilla Civ IV - The copper resource probably represents copper+tin.

Good idea? Bad idea? Thoughts?
 
Aeon221 said:
.... which directly resulted in his victory over the Swedish Pikes.
Mmm yes....the famous swedish pikes....:rolleyes: ;)
 
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