The Mongols vs. the Roman Legions...who would win?

BOTP

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I would say the Mongols easily. They were far to mobile for the Romans to effectively deal with. Of course it might not be exactly a fair scenario for the poor Romans, as the Mongols are a medieval force while the Romans are a classical one. Before the reforms in 3th-4th century the Roman army would have serious problems against a Mongol army. The late Roman army used more cavalry and had specialized archer units while the regular heavy infantry units apparently had their own missile-armed men too. If the Western Empire had survived to the 1200s, who knows what it's Army would have looked like. The only Roman army that might stand a chance against Mongols would be the 7th century AD or (more likely) early 11th century AD armies (Justinian and Basil Bulgaroktonos times, respectively). Yes, Byzantines armies. They relied on cavalry, had plenty of archers (actually almost all of Basils footmen would use the bow) and had highly sophisticated tactics. In Basil's times they were even accustomed fighting steppe armies and they all had, more or less, the same basic outfit. Apparently the eastern Roman army had more archers compared to the western army.

Granted, the Roman Legion had proper quantities of missile, disciplined heavy infantry as well as cavalry, but still, all odds would be in favor of the Mongols. Standard Roman armies (legion and such) wouldn't stand a chance in the million facing the horde. They would be massacred to the last man. The Romans would fall due to the simple fact that they have a severe lack of cavalry. That has been Rome's weakness throughout its history.

The mongols on the other hand are more or less have an eitire army of lightly armored horsemen. They would just do what they have done to the Europeans in their invasion or Europe. Skirmish the enemy to death and end up surounding them in which case a slaughter would ensue. Also... the Mongols employed the use of gun powder and advanded siege technology from the conquored Chineese. That is yet another great advantage. Even though legionaries wouldn't follow a feigned retreat, they couldn't do much against Mongol skirmishing, and since these also had armour piercing arrows and composite bows, it would give them trouble. Another problem for the Mongols would be the great flexibility of the cohort system, able to take almost every charge from every direction.

Now, if we're talking about the Roman army at the time of the Great Migration, then there's a whole different pie to eat. Ill take for example, the Sarmatian tribes, formost among them the Roxolani and Iazyges. They fought like the Parthians and the Sassanids after them, being of Skythian (or a related people) origin. They were also the master of the 'Parthian' shot and the kontos. They were also a pure steppe people, fighting in a loose federation against or with the Romans. They came accross the Romans many times, their first major stance towards Rome was as ally of Mithridates of Pontus. They were the ones who gave him solace in the Bosphoric realm (Crimea).

However, they never did anything decisive to the Romans, and up until they were conquered by Trajan in his second Dacian war, they were usually defeated by the Romans, although - being steppe people - not conclusively. However, when Trajan invaded Dacia in the second Dacian war, important Sarmatian tribes like the Roxolani and Iazyges had migrated into Dacia, and fought alongside the Dacians (I think). The Romans defeated them through good use of auxiliary units, as well as closing in quick on their enemy to minimise their exposion in the approx. 200m range of the Sarmatian composite bow.

The same strategy was used against the Parthians and the Sassanians, resulting in the fact that they could not use their potent ranged power and thus the clibanarii faced fresh, well-formated troops, which they could not break without having them tired and battered by the horse archers and skirmishers that they levied. However, Since the Parthians gave the Romans gigantic problems when facing them in full force and in the pure sense of a "Parthian army" (something not true anymore when Septimus Severus captured Ctesiphon, because the Parthian king had lessened power), I'd say the Mongols, with their more advanced tactics, wouldn't have an all too big problem with the Romans.
 
I say Romans. The Romans had numerical superiority, which normally wouldn't be a prob for the Mongols. But the Mongols fought mostly levy armies who easily cracked under pressure. The Roman army did not crack under pressure. And the Romans did have cavalry.
 
Amenhotep7 said:
But the Mongols fought mostly levy armies who easily cracked under pressure. The Roman army did not crack under pressure. And the Romans did have cavalry. And the Romans did have cavalry.

Finally rome used TONS of mercenaries and levies. Along with the legion, it could have Visgoth and Goth infantry, Hunic cavalry, and on and on and on. As for the cavalry, the Light and heavy Cavalry is one of the major reasons Rome fell. the Roman Legion was outdated, cavalry could run right over one. I can say this- the Romans had a lack of cavalry, especially against later barbarians and especially Parthians.
 
Yes, but if need be, (such as in the Gallic Wars period), Roman cavalry played a major role. The Romans DID have cavalry.
 
The Roman cavalry, and even the Germanic and Hunnic cavalry, were greatly inferior to the Mongol cavalry. The Roman legion was just not mobile enough to have ever a chance against the Mongols.
 
Mongols, so easily it would hardly have broken a sweat.

The Mongols used a highly efficient army concept that would have outflanked the Romans and showered them with arrows, or ambushed them after a long march, etc. The Romans simply would not have stood a chance against the highly experienced and disciplined Mongol army of light cavalry to arrow them to death and heavy cavalry to sweep up the remnants.

Even in seige warfare (a mongol army besieging a roman city), I'd bet on the Mongols, even if you deprieve them of gunpowder.

The Mongols, in short, were a highly adaptible, mobile, killing machine that would ahve chewed the Romans to pieces easily.
 
XIII said:
A comparison is inept; they're fr two wholely different eras and technological stages.

true, one reason for mongol 's being better than roman era cavalry is a little thing called the stirup
 
I'd like to know how the Mongols could shower the Romans "to death" with their arrows if the Romans used testudo formation. Surely the Mongols would win - their heavy cavalry could run right over infantry, and they could totally cut off the Romans from any supplies, but their great archers would not be what won the battle.
 
storealex said:
I'd like to know how the Mongols could shower the Romans "to death" with their arrows if the Romans used testudo formation. Surely the Mongols would win - their heavy cavalry could run right over infantry, and they could totally cut off the Romans from any supplies, but their great archers would not be what won the battle.
The Mongols had a nasty habit of superb signalling and quick communication with all its component forces and of hitting an enemy force when it was most disorganized (when it's on the move etc) and fr all sides. They didn't depend on mere bows and arrows.
 
A comparison is inept; they're fr two wholely different eras and technological stages.

I agree, but Mongols definately would win. The Roman Legions would not be mobile enough to keep up with the Mongolian cavalry archers and cavalry. It would be a hit-and-run type warfare, where the Roman Legions are hopelessly chasing the Mongolians. The Mongolians perfected the fake retreat which probably would have fooled the Romans.
 
Romans, easy.

you yipe and you yell abotu the greatness of roman tactics, and profinciency of Mongol bow and stirrup, but at the end fo the day, the Mongols artn all the different from the major horse powers of Romes day, the assorted skythian tribes, and the Parthians, both of whom, if a roman army was under good leadership, the Romans could continuouslly whoop easilly. I bid you all remember, that the parthians used many fo the same tactics the mongols would use, including the fake retreat, and massed cavalry archers, as well as faster, stronger breeds fo horses; and the walluped an inept general like Crassus; under Emperor trajan however, those same armies, by now even more skilled at fighting Roman armies, lost liek dogs, righ tin front of thier capital city no less!
 
Xen, bt by the time of Trajan, the Parthian kings and generals were very incapable of anything. The Romans at their height never encountered anything as superior as the Mongols.
 
The Mongols, as nomadic tribes go, are in a class of their own. Hardly comparable with the Parthians or whatever.

GK gave them the unity of purpose and confidence to take on the world.

One reason why they're still around today.
 
@Mongolid cow; true, but it also shows that the Mongols while supreior, had nothing all that new in the realm of tacticle innovation to show off to the Roman armies, better troopers, yes, ofcourse, but they would be reaching out fo the same old bag of tacticle tricks.

@XIII; true, yet Romes culture is what inspired european domiance, somthing far more felt then the survival of mongolia
 
Xen said:
@Mongolid cow; true, but it also shows that the Mongols while supreior, had nothing all that new in the realm of tacticle innovation to show off to the Roman armies, better troopers, yes, ofcourse, but they would be reaching out fo the same old bag of tacticle tricks.
Incorrect.

The Mongols are unique in one point - they did not shy away fr using the resources of their occupied territories to further their conquests.

In any hypothetical engagement betw the two, the Romans would meet more than just Mongol cavalrymen.

And Mongol cavalry was more than mere horse-archers; they also didn't shy away fr meleeing, as needed. Their strong point was in excellent inter-unit communication and coorperation (as I had emphasised again and again). A Mongol force could divided itself into numerous columns which could all hit an enemy force at the same time and from all sides. Bad, for an army on the march, or otherwise unprepared for battle.

In any case, as I had stated, a comparison betw the two is inept, due to the wholly difference ages and technological stages they both came from.

@XIII; true, yet Romes culture is what inspired european domiance, somthing far more felt then the survival of mongolia
Maybe but Roman culture is hardly the cause of European dominance. :p
 
XIII said:
Incorrect.

The Mongols are unique in one point - they did not shy away fr using the resources of their occupied territories to further their conquests.

In any hypothetical engagement betw the two, the Romans would meet more than just Mongol cavalrymen.

And Mongol cavalry was more than mere horse-archers; they also didn't shy away fr meleeing, as needed. Their strong point was in excellent inter-unit communication and coorperation (as I had emphasised again and again). A Mongol force could divided itself into numerous columns which could all hit an enemy force at the same time and from all sides. Bad, for an army on the march, or otherwise unprepared for battle.

Maybe but Roman culture is hardly the cause of European dominance. :p

your point? The Parthian,Persian, and eventualyl Hunnic amries all operated the same way; a core of cavalry, supported by other types of troops of no resemblence at all to the persians, and only conncted by that fact that said nation ruled over, them, and pressed them into service, in the same fashion the Mongols would eventually do as well, and more then likelly, just as ineffective agiasnt a Roman army skilled at taking on the part sof the armies the mongols would likelly be recruiting from

you also say that the mongol speacility was interunit communication; all i say is that it was the same fro a Roman army, and as fro ambushes, after tuetoburg, how many ambushes of Roman marching coloums do we hear about?

and as for culture? heh, then why did Russia prcliam itself a 3rd Rome, and Germany try to garner the status of Rome upon itself? They wante dto emulate, and garner the power that Rome had when it was best, as it was already ingrained into the western conscience.

I understand that I may seem even more a glory hound then Roem for usualy, but I've been caught with my pants down so to speak, being out of the loop for a while due to a hurricane; i have to make up on time lost to garner my arguments, and back them all up. Sorry if I seem a bit offensive, buts it not quite the best situation for me, and my posts somewhat reflect it I think
 
your point? The Parthian,Persian, and eventualyl Hunnic amries all operated the same way; a core of cavalry, supported by other types of troops of no resemblence at all to the persians, and only conncted by that fact that said nation ruled over, them, and pressed them into service, in the same fashion the Mongols would eventually do as well, and more then likelly, just as ineffective agiasnt a Roman army skilled at taking on the part sof the armies the mongols would likelly be recruiting from
I'm referring to the kinds of cannon fodder usable by the Mongols - other nomads, Chinese, Persians, Central Asians, Koreans as well as other whole nations with ancient and glorious histories. None before could compare, in terms of scale.

E.g. the entire 'Mongol' conquest of Song China was carried out by a N Chinese army, stiffened with a Mongol cavalry corps.

In the other thread, we're talking about Han Chinese vs Romans. Well, how about Han Chinese/Mongol vs Romans?

and as for culture? heh, then why did Russia prcliam itself a 3rd Rome, and Germany try to garner the status of Rome upon itself? They wante dto emulate, and garner the power that Rome had when it was best, as it was already ingrained into the western conscience.
They're inspired. But not caused by. Read my words more carefully.

The emergence of the West was due less to Roman inspiration, than to a host of other political, economic and military factors.
 
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