The most important tech: Flight
- Thread starter The Snug
- Start date
If you live that long.....
The interesting part is that all of the things that thadian and sirsnuggles are praising in Flight are things that they shun in other techs. Sorry , my friends, but that is not coherent.
Could you be specific? I haven't shunned anything from another tech. I have, however, simply stated that other techs do not grant the same inequality of cognitive usage.
And P.S: If I see a player massing airships, I do not wait for him to get flight ( would you? ). And Ships do take planes down ( never saw a plane suinking a ship in Civ IVand not even the AI is stupid enough to send alone ships )
Again, ships will not shoot down a full-strength fighter. Again, learn how to use fighters to augment your surface troops.
If I'm amassing airships while I'm researching flight, than it's too late for you to take me down, otherwise I'd be amassing mg's.
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
now thats a thought, snuggles! Normally when someone realizes what i am doing, i know that i will be forced to defend it - be honest, if i get riflemen are you going to let me mass my army, or will you promote all you have to be good vs gunpowder units and stop me before i get started?
With any tech - you will stop me before i get started, weather you see me amassing airships while im researching flight - or weather you see me massing rifleman while i research assembly line. if you see me slow down my troops as i near in on gunpowder and know i am getting ready for an aggresive gunpowder campaign, i hope your macemen are going to come and kill me before i can research it. You can say that about ANY tech in the game.
With any tech - you will stop me before i get started, weather you see me amassing airships while im researching flight - or weather you see me massing rifleman while i research assembly line. if you see me slow down my troops as i near in on gunpowder and know i am getting ready for an aggresive gunpowder campaign, i hope your macemen are going to come and kill me before i can research it. You can say that about ANY tech in the game.
JujuLautre
Deity
What is "the most important tech" ?
Is it the tech that allows you the best military advantage? Or the one that allows you the biggest economic advantage? Or the one without which you cannot do anything? Or the one you'll be able to trade around for 5 techs, giving you a very good profit?
That said, should we consider maps? leaders? Situation? What is "the best military advantage"? Or "the biggest economic advantage" ?
I simply cannot see how one can state that something in civ is "the best" in general, given the complexity and the situation-dependence of the game, as well as the huge range of playing style existing.
That said, since we're talking about military things, aren't most military games over before anyone has a chance to shine with flight? If I had to vote for "one important tech", I wouldn't either vote for such a late tech.
Is it the tech that allows you the best military advantage? Or the one that allows you the biggest economic advantage? Or the one without which you cannot do anything? Or the one you'll be able to trade around for 5 techs, giving you a very good profit?
That said, should we consider maps? leaders? Situation? What is "the best military advantage"? Or "the biggest economic advantage" ?
I simply cannot see how one can state that something in civ is "the best" in general, given the complexity and the situation-dependence of the game, as well as the huge range of playing style existing.
That said, since we're talking about military things, aren't most military games over before anyone has a chance to shine with flight? If I had to vote for "one important tech", I wouldn't either vote for such a late tech.
Brian Boru
Prince
No, if you rebase this turn, you can't do anything else until next turn.
JohnMK
Warlord
Fighters are too powerful, too early, too abruptly. I'd like to see a weaker biplane with movement/range lessened by 1 available first, and a few more techs to go before the advanced fighters/bombers of WW2 are arrived at.
TopDog
Prince
I agree completely, definitely best tech in the game. Flight makes taking citeis very easy. However I dont agree that navies become obsolete - aircrat carriers are my avourite unit in the game, but still, as you say, playing against a human player with lots of planes any naval stack will not last long in the open.
JohnMK
Warlord
"You would make a man fly by placing him in the burning belly of a metal bird??? . . . I have no time for such nonsense." - Said by someone. Apparently me, mocking Napoleon. 
Now that's a well-stated post. I respect it. Each game is of course different, but overall, I find this tech to be the one that the AI cannot counter.
I do not believe in, or use early rushes, hence, for a pacifist like me, Flight is the tech that ensures victory in battle. I detest the early war strategies of civ4, bcz they turn the game into something that it's not intended to be. CIV is about building and creating a civilization, it's not supposed to be Warcraft. I view it sorta the same way as the creators did concernng ICS in civ2.
I think that in previous versions of civ, it was commonly accepted that in civ1, tanks were unstoppable, civ2 howitzers, civ3 cavalry. For each of these units, it was widely accepted that the game was now over.
For me, the unit in civ4 is fighters.
I am on the rifling side of this debate, the AI go for the mounted units tech around this time and on Monarch its possible to face maces and knights or currisars with a stack of rifles and even without the spies or seige for the defenses the odds are very good.
On normal speed I almost never tech flight, or its an after thought well after the game result is totally set and its just a matter of time before launch or domination. Flight is simply too late and then there's all the airports to build, I have never built one yet in any game ever by the way, its just too late.
Like mentioned earlier the most important tech is the one crucial to your winning strategy, its Theology if you want an early win that way, its rifling if you have beelined it loads and everyone else has maces, its perhaps flight if you have been too lazy to be in a winning position by the time it comes up, for many its bronze working as if the early rush goes well I think lots of players already have a good idea its likely to be a winning game. it might be nukes, they are earlier if you beeline and with the UN in your pocket you can build a load of them and then outlaw building more before anyone lese has, the AI then probably won't bother with many bunkers and other defense. If you want a unit thats overpowered when used to the max then surely one press and an entire city is decimated with nackered troops and less population, all that flaffing with lots of planes and airports and carriers etc etc, one nuke and there you go, and doing the UN trick so no-one else has them is very doable.
the most important tech is the one crucial to your strategy...........
On normal speed I almost never tech flight, or its an after thought well after the game result is totally set and its just a matter of time before launch or domination. Flight is simply too late and then there's all the airports to build, I have never built one yet in any game ever by the way, its just too late.
Like mentioned earlier the most important tech is the one crucial to your winning strategy, its Theology if you want an early win that way, its rifling if you have beelined it loads and everyone else has maces, its perhaps flight if you have been too lazy to be in a winning position by the time it comes up, for many its bronze working as if the early rush goes well I think lots of players already have a good idea its likely to be a winning game. it might be nukes, they are earlier if you beeline and with the UN in your pocket you can build a load of them and then outlaw building more before anyone lese has, the AI then probably won't bother with many bunkers and other defense. If you want a unit thats overpowered when used to the max then surely one press and an entire city is decimated with nackered troops and less population, all that flaffing with lots of planes and airports and carriers etc etc, one nuke and there you go, and doing the UN trick so no-one else has them is very doable.
the most important tech is the one crucial to your strategy...........
It's time for you to step-up a level or two.
That's an unusual stance to take: "I don't like early war, so for a pacifist like me, I like to wait until the game is three quarters of the way over, then use airplanes to win my domination victories?"
I dunno about that. You get the right mix of destroyers/ battleships and carriers with their intercept ready fighters, and the stack should be able to deliver your transports to their destination and provide a decent bombardment upon arrival.
It's not too different from regular SoDs.
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
Perhaps those on the "Flight" side are like me and apparently snuggles - pacifists who avoid getting mauled by using our brains to outplay a flawed AI then go for the kill when you have 0% chance to lose.
Whereas most of the people on the "Rifleman" side play aggro, and never see flight. they never see it because they use the "early rush" and by the time they get rifles, theres prob only 1-2 civ's left. It is really a matter of how you play, and how well you use your techs.
But the fact still remains weather you prefer aggro or peace, there are 2 points in the game i see a domain being unlocked for the first time. the first i see, is when caravels become an option and everyone else has little itty-bitty triremes. All of a sudden, you can discover the whole world - and wage a war unlike any other. But it is short lived because in about 5 turns, everyone will have it. you don't get exclusivity with it. imagine if you could be the only one with it for say... 50 turns. you ignore your troop building to some extent and have guarenteed 50 turns of nobody else getting any type of tech that gives them better ships than galleys and triremes.
This is what flight does.
Once you get it, you can stop others from getting it so fast with espionage. sure, there are arguments as to weather the game should still be going on - if your playing conquest i guess the game should be over well before gunpowder is introduced. If your playing space-race you can do it without flight. Then again, if your a builder, you can hold it off until you finally get that one tech that makes it impossible for you to lose.
Regardless of all of this, there is nothing like having exclusive dominion over this element of the game. the flexibility of this alone can recover you from many bad situations, and can win you games you are losing. i doubt any of you play "Magic the gathering", but for those who do... "Flight" is like a deck full of counterspells with split second.
Edit: I think the "Peace Pipe" is the strongest tech, and most important one - but we wont go there.
Whereas most of the people on the "Rifleman" side play aggro, and never see flight. they never see it because they use the "early rush" and by the time they get rifles, theres prob only 1-2 civ's left. It is really a matter of how you play, and how well you use your techs.
But the fact still remains weather you prefer aggro or peace, there are 2 points in the game i see a domain being unlocked for the first time. the first i see, is when caravels become an option and everyone else has little itty-bitty triremes. All of a sudden, you can discover the whole world - and wage a war unlike any other. But it is short lived because in about 5 turns, everyone will have it. you don't get exclusivity with it. imagine if you could be the only one with it for say... 50 turns. you ignore your troop building to some extent and have guarenteed 50 turns of nobody else getting any type of tech that gives them better ships than galleys and triremes.
This is what flight does.
Once you get it, you can stop others from getting it so fast with espionage. sure, there are arguments as to weather the game should still be going on - if your playing conquest i guess the game should be over well before gunpowder is introduced. If your playing space-race you can do it without flight. Then again, if your a builder, you can hold it off until you finally get that one tech that makes it impossible for you to lose.
Regardless of all of this, there is nothing like having exclusive dominion over this element of the game. the flexibility of this alone can recover you from many bad situations, and can win you games you are losing. i doubt any of you play "Magic the gathering", but for those who do... "Flight" is like a deck full of counterspells with split second.
Edit: I think the "Peace Pipe" is the strongest tech, and most important one - but we wont go there.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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I definitely disagree.
As I disagree with the title. There's no such thing as a most important tech (esp not one that comes so late). I personally consider writing one of the most important techs.
There are so many jumps in military along the techtree. Flight may be one, but personally I think rifling would be more gamebreaking.
My vote would be pottery, personally
. Granaries are arguably the best economic building in the game...and you can build cottages...Flight isn't SO game-breaking as OP implies. I've won quite a number of games easily where the AI had it and I did not. Granted, most of these involved naval warfare, and massed destroyers are pretty dangerous to planes (the AI is terrible at using its navy and really has no answer for a naval SoD that includes 10+ destroyers and some battleships!).
It's very convenient and fast to bombard defenses and cause collateral with them if the AI or your human opponents don't have enough interception chances. If they do it's not very cost effective...maybe just use your own interception and spam missiles into their face.
And yes, there are a TON of military jumps, starting with bronzeworking
. You mentioned rifling, Dirk seems to prefer steel etc. I'm starting to like military tradition a lot as it's pretty easy to take it with liberalism and pick up gunpowder for the 12 str cuirassers provided you have the resources - very dangerous units!My favorite military jump points are BW, IW/HBR, construction, MT, rifling, chemistry (naval power maps), assembly line, combustion, and industrialism. I use engineering as one sometimes too - trebs/pike/xbow with knights worked in as muskets show up is pretty strong and can get some mileage if you have enough hammers.
That's a LOT of jump points - and just like flight, none are going to be extremely relevant to a player from a military standpoint on EVERY map (excepting perhaps BW, due to slavery/chopping).
Because I tend to clump units for naval transport launching sites, airlifting is actually more inconvenient for me compared to using galleons or transports
. I'm probably weird.
JujuLautre
Deity
You're definitely not fair here. Some deity players (I say "some" because I'm not sure how much, but I think easily more than half on these boards) already swear by the military advantage or renaissance techs like rifling, military tradition and steel. The gain in power is just brutal as is the draft. And if those player can exploit this advantage, it clearly means they can get to those techs before at least some AIs.
Also, unlike what you think, partisans of rifling and partisans of early rushs are both different things. Unless you call the renaissance "early" of course.
Regardless of all of this, there is nothing like having exclusive dominion over this element of the game. the flexibility of this alone can recover you from many bad situations, and can win you games you are losing. i doubt any of you play "Magic the gathering", but for those who do... "Flight" is like a deck full of counterspells with split second.
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