The most important tech: Flight

[r_rolo1]

Could you be specific? I haven't shunned anything from another tech. I have, however, simply stated that other techs do not grant the same inequality of cognitive usage.

Quoting.....

AH? Animal Husbandry? Come on. Mounted units have very limited usages. Their mobility is nullified by opposing roads. They are again, another example of a lower (or perhaps middle) cognitive unit.

Early game, navies are important, but flight makes naval warfare moot. Fighters permit your navy to irradicate an opps navy without loss of life. Naval warfare is unimportnat compared to land warfare. You cannot win or lose the game at sea. You win or lose the game by taking/defending or losing cities. Airlifting nullifies the need for mass transports and the massive navies needed to protect transports.

Writing and BW do not permit the human player greater advantages than the AI. Sure, you can assign specialists, but so can the AI in equal fashion. Sure you can build axemen, so can the AI. The beefits derived from both techs can be equally matched by the AI. Again, these sorts of techs simply provide lower cognitive functioning, detailed type functions that the AI can match.

Basically, Flight is good, because I like it and because Blake didn't programmed the AI to take full advantage of it.... But BW is not that good because AI can also chop and make axes ( like if the AI didn't made planes and airports ). AH is bad because chariots are weak ( like if planes were uber-strong ). Combustion is weak because ships can't take cities ( like if planes could )......

You have a point in saying that the AI simply doesn't know how to use flight's advantages as humans do, but AI doesn't know how to mass draft rifles or to spam cuirassers, of to Lib Steel and get early cannons with their maces. Or to cat rush......

 

[mystyfly]

DAMN, I've just written a response with 12398 quotes but I lost it

I'll summarize my answers:
You, who prefer flight, seem to like to fight with obsolete and "weak" units for some wicked reason. You use fighters to weaken the enemies' units so your units have a chance. I prefer to have stronger untis. That's why I beeline rifling. You can get them very quickly, either via upgrading (like you can with fighters) or via drafting. Whipping is also more efficient. I think you'll agree that getting lots of rifles fast is easier than getting a lot of fighters fast.

Getting rifling before the AI does is usually no problem for me (immortal). I also get it earlier by quite a margain as I use bulbs and liberalism to get it sooner, things the AI isn't that good in. Thadian IIRC said something about keeping the edge for 50 turns or so. I doubt that is realistic, even if the tech in question is flight...

RE the mobility thingie: You can't bring your units one tile away of the enemies city with airlifting but you can with a naval landing. Airlifting is very handy for reinforcing though. But I still disagree that a reinforcement stack of 4-5 rifles is really endangered. Conclusion: Airlifting is good for reinforcing and defence. Naval landing is good for offence.

Also, just to make sure, the best defending units the AI usually has when I knock on the door with my draftles are LBows and Muskets. Not that hard to say who will win the fight...


And you so-called "pacifists" talking about taking down civs is just silly

 

[KingMorgan]

I'd agree with Snuggles and Thal that Flight is a powerful tech that is under uztilized by the AI and that in the right hands it can do damage, however presonally speaking i'm lucky if i even bother to reserach it, usally the game is won or lost well before that point. IMO if you need to rely on flight then your in one deep hole.

 

[Meanness]

I'm confused.

You're playing above Monarch level, and without any early or mid-game war, you're able to severely out-tech the AI, so that you get Flight long before the AI gets Rocketry? And then you can maintain that lead long enough to win domination victories?

I'd be much more interested in learning how you do this than listening to a pointless debate about the 'best' tech.

 

[Perfxion]

Um depending on what Civ you are, iron or bronze is more important.
If Rome, and you are the first with iron, there is NO modern era.

 

[mystyfly]

That's the thing, he doesn't use OP civs like rome (but liz of portugal on terra ). He's a pacifist.

 

[mrt144]

flight isn't that important if you consider that often times the game is on the wane by the time you get to it. flight just accelerates what you're already on your way to doing.

There are so many more techs that I would deem as most important like CoL (Religion, Maintenance) , Alphabet (Tech Trading) , Civil Service (Irrigation, Bureaucracy), and if you get these techs first you will have advantages over your opponents.

 

[mrt144]

Now that's a well-stated post. I respect it. Each game is of course different, but overall, I find this tech to be the one that the AI cannot counter.

I do not believe in, or use early rushes, hence, for a pacifist like me, Flight is the tech that ensures victory in battle. I detest the early war strategies of civ4, bcz they turn the game into something that it's not intended to be. CIV is about building and creating a civilization, it's not supposed to be Warcraft. I view it sorta the same way as the creators did concernng ICS in civ2.

I think that in previous versions of civ, it was commonly accepted that in civ1, tanks were unstoppable, civ2 howitzers, civ3 cavalry. For each of these units, it was widely accepted that the game was now over.

For me, the unit in civ4 is fighters.

Oh come on; your interpretation of what Civ IV is and should be about is completely subjective and definitely odd. Are civilizations not created by war, destroyed by war, and fundamentally changed by war? If you look at most civilizations that have risen and fallen, war is part of their history. To say that building a civilization should be about being a pacifist up until the modern age strikes me as some kind of fanciful thinking outside the bounds of what most if not everyone views as an essential part of the game. how did you arrive at this nuanced belief?

 

[The Snug]

Oh come on; your interpretation of what Civ IV is and should be about is completely subjective and definitely odd. Are civilizations not created by war, destroyed by war, and fundamentally changed by war? If you look at most civilizations that have risen and fallen, war is part of their history. To say that building a civilization should be about being a pacifist up until the modern age strikes me as some kind of fanciful thinking outside the bounds of what most if not everyone views as an essential part of the game. how did you arrive at this nuanced belief?

From the history of the civ series. Unfortunately, civ4 has become a turn-based version of Warcraft.

I'm a pacifist all the way to the end, but I can't prevent other civs from declaring war on me. Early game, I simply ignore them and build until the flight era where it becomes easy to end their nuisance.

 

[The Snug]

I'm confused.

You're playing above Monarch level, and without any early or mid-game war, you're able to severely out-tech the AI, so that you get Flight long before the AI gets Rocketry? And then you can maintain that lead long enough to win domination victories?

I'd be much more interested in learning how you do this than listening to a pointless debate about the 'best' tech.

Infrastructure.

 

[mrt144]

From the history of the civ series. Unfortunately, civ4 has become a turn-based version of Warcraft.

I'm a pacifist all the way to the end, but I can't prevent other civs from declaring war on me. Early game, I simply ignore them and build until the flight era where it becomes easy to end their nuisance.

Turned based version of warcraft based on what?

 

[TigerBotHesh]

I like fighters, but I think bombers are even better. Once you've established air superiority, a stack of bombers can whittle a city's defense/city garrison down to nothing. And dropping 7-14 bombers on an approaching SOD is just a thing of beauty.

The ability to draft riflemen/infantry can not be overlooked either. By pulling four units out of thin air you have a fairly strong group that can be used to counterattack, reinforce existing troops or serve as an ad hoc city garrison.

 

[The Snug]

Should be obvious.

 

[TigerBotHesh]

While we're at it, I've never understood why you can develop Rocketry without first discovering Flight. I mean, I know it would be possible, but it just doesn't seem likely. But yeah, in my games a lot of the AIs will beeline for Rocketry and then try to play catch-up later with Flight.

 

[mrt144]

Should be obvious.

Why are you trying to weasel out of giving a thorough and well thought out answer? If you aren't going to take the time to explain the basis of your opinions why should we take your opinion to have any value?

 

[thadian]

I'm confused.

You're playing above Monarch level, and without any early or mid-game war, you're able to severely out-tech the AI, so that you get Flight long before the AI gets Rocketry? And then you can maintain that lead long enough to win domination victories?

I'd be much more interested in learning how you do this than listening to a pointless debate about the 'best' tech.

This is exactly what i do. i practice strong diplo, build heavy infrastructure and use a "cowards army" so that when the AI declares war on me for my peacemongering a few things happen.

First, i get their neighbors on my side of the war.

Second, i build up a defensive formation and use "pawns" to manipulate where and how the AI moves. I know i couldn't do this to a player, but i digress - the AI isn't a player.

By the time my enemies actually present a real threat to me, i am usually able to peace them for some gold and a tech. This is in part because the AI is not good at suprise attacks.

In the early-mid game its about licking and survival while i build up every building i can, with as few units as i can to avoid wars (using the power ranking screen, i often use drafting as my exclusive military once it is availible - with barracks, and theocracy)

Then once chemistry becomes an option, i find the people i fear war from and put privateer stacks on their coasts to have a pre-emptive naval strike and pillage gold. Privateers really give you board control if you can get it exclusively for at least several turns.

So, here is how i do it: I start the early game with 3 cities and begin a specialist/cottage hybrid economy. (depending on the start, i learned to go with the flow and not force in strategies). I always give into demands with this exception - i wont go to war. BUT i will if theres already enough people at war or if i am unable to be effectively reached for a long-term campaign.

Once the mid-game starts up i build nothing but naval units and financial and research buildings to stay ahead of the curve. my problems usually start coming around engineering when every AI starts picking up the aggression. I usually abuse the badly implemented coastal patrol. If i have a hostile neighbor, i build diplo triangles around him, and keep him at war.

I also circumvenulate the globe with map trading half the time. this is because i need my caravels on the defense and can't really afford to go exploring.

 

[The Snug]

Why are you trying to weasel out of giving a thorough and well thought out answer? If you aren't going to take the time to explain the basis of your opinions why should we take your opinion to have any value?

lol. I think, of all ppl here, I tend to be the most long-winded. But in regards to this issue, I will simply reiiterate that it should be obvious.

You build soldiiers. And then more soldiers. Sprinkle in the occassional worker who will obtain soldier resources. Once in a while you might construct a building that will give you better soldiers. Build more soldiers. Use soldiers to go bonk heads as fast as you can.

Which game did I just describe?

 

[mrt144]

lol. I think, of all ppl here, I tend to be the most long-winded. But in regards to this issue, I will simply reiiterate that it should be obvious.

You build soldiiers. And then more soldiers. Sprinkle in the occassional worker who will obtain soldier resources. Once in a while you might construct a building that will give you better soldiers. Build more soldiers. Use soldiers to go bonk heads as fast as you can.

Which game did I just describe?

that is merely one aspect of the game and isn't THE way to play. and by that (meaning troops troops and more troops and building upgrades) metric the total war series is like warcraft minus the resource gathering.

 

[thadian]

pacifism is its own strategy - and while you can win with cultural in this method, i often disable that. therefore, i have 3 windows: Rifiling, but i never have enough troops to make it a paramount jump. Chemistry, but i don't like going to war with only navy.

Flight, which finally lets my inferior numbers overcome superior odds.

Your right, this will not win in MP. Nor should it - i have only won 2 times in MP ever, both times using this method. This i use because i hate the early rushes. I guess that means i am a crap player because i do not like early-rushing? You have the right to say that, if you can hang regularly on emperor, which i can not - you just may be right to say it. thats for you to say.

The few times i actually play MP, i always find myself either in some odd "download this mod" custom game, which i just don't do - or in a game ALL about the early rush - to this, i often avoid multiplayer or i put it as a 2v2v2 with each player backed up with an emperor level AI. this really lets me do what i want while my AI slave does most of the "early work".

Back to the real issue, if your aggro your muskets will win before flight even hits the board - because as i already said, you used an early rush on some, and mid rush on others, meaning you only have one or 2 opponents left to mop up. at this point you could probably turn everything off and let your vassals do the work for you.

But no matter what style you play, Flight gives you a whole new world of flexibility. with a minimal navy, you can declare war on a vassals neighbor and re-enforce your vassal properly while leaving your navy and bulk in your homeland. it gives you flexibility that is not opened up too much earlier, and unless others know what your doing, you can usually monopolize it and wreck the board.

 

[The Snug]

Thadian, you'll do fine. It is possible to beat Immortal and Deity without rushing. You seem to be picking up a good grasp of the game, I believe you'll eventually beat the higher levels. Experience will teach you how to survive each era and each type of situation.