r_rolo1
King of myself
AH allows you to outmanouver the enemy. Combustion allows you to outmanouver the enemy ( in the sea ), as well as Astro and Optics ( I can use ocean to protect me )
The most important tech: Flight
- Thread starter The Snug
- Start date
Again, each of these techs simply provide a unit that is mathematically better than previous types. They do not, however, make your usage of these units smarter, and they will not help you if your opponent possesses equal or superior units.
Flight grants you a further cognitive advantage over a limited AI, and it further eliminates comparative strengths of units.
Obviously fighters cannot take cities, but when I have fighters I only need a skeleton attack army to advance.
Fighters eliminate both your reliance upon siege units, and the necessity for massive unit spamming. Flight enables you to do more with less (a necessity on higher levels).
It is ineffecient to rely upon brute strength (which cannot be easily achieved on high levels). Someone who gets to rifling and uses it to attack muskets is simply relying upon brute strength, rather than upon critical thinking. They just need more units.
With flight, I can achieve more with less. I do not rely upon brute strength, but upon intelligent usage of my new found abilities.
At higher difficulty levels, they don't need to. They can build their units cheaper than you.
Your points 1) and 2) fit perfectly for rifling as well. I say it's easier getting rifling before the AI as 1. the gap between you and the AI isn't that big yet (due to bonuses and bigger empire) and 2. you can get there fast with bulbing which doesn't help you much when beelining flight.
Writing was only an example of an important tech. You say flight is the most important, I say it's not.
As to getting a military advantage, for that is rifling the perfect example. I manage in most of my games to get rifling first on immortal having it as a monopoly for quite some time. The magic word is bulbing. You don't need tech superiority just beelining.
I don't know how you can think early techs are less "powerful" as they have the biggest impact on the game. Neglecting a certain early tech hurts more than neglecting a certan late tech.
Writing was only an example of an important tech. You say flight is the most important, I say it's not.
As to getting a military advantage, for that is rifling the perfect example. I manage in most of my games to get rifling first on immortal having it as a monopoly for quite some time. The magic word is bulbing. You don't need tech superiority just beelining.
I don't know how you can think early techs are less "powerful" as they have the biggest impact on the game. Neglecting a certain early tech hurts more than neglecting a certan late tech.
Ever drafted rifles? The best food : hammers ratio there is in civ.
Right, the fighers also help you fend off the counterattacks. That's because they're so mobile (they can move and attack at the same turn right), they can attack faraway units and damage them so they don't dare attacking the cities they just lost.
That's why a big part of the rifle's value lies in drafting.
Early game, navies are important, but flight makes naval warfare moot. Fighters permit your navy to irradicate an opps navy without loss of life. Naval warfare is unimportnat compared to land warfare. You cannot win or lose the game at sea. You win or lose the game by taking/defending or losing cities. Airlifting nullifies the need for mass transports and the massive navies needed to protect transports.
When I see the AI spamming ships, I cry for them. Bcz, while they are spamming ships and killing my fish, I airlift troops into the war zone and take their cities. And if I feel like it, I'll use my fighters to weaken their ships and then send mine out of port to sink theirs.
Early game is the time where you only need galleys to settle on other islands.sirsnuggles said:
Agree, wars are won on land. But getting an 50-man strong army overseas is easier imo by sea. You don't really need the transports anymore so no need to protect them if they can drop off the attackers in the first turn of war.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Flight can't kill ships. ships can kill planes.
Chariots have the double of the speed of anything else at the time except Impis. That is not slow in my book
Chariots have the double of the speed of anything else at the time except Impis. That is not slow in my book
Transports can be important for initial attacks, but the enduring supply line comes from airlifts. You can't sink an airlift, and you don't have to wait x# turns to get there.
I find that in a multitheatre war, airlifiting is the only feasible supply line.
I like archi maps. When I play them, I tend to have colonies on lots of different landmasses. The only viable supply line for all of these far flung colonies is airlifting. And with airlifting I can attack whatever other cities are on those landmasses. I can direct my troop concentration immediately to wherever I need it without a dependence upon navies. My fighters can then support my troops wherever I send them (meaning that I can get away with smaller armies).
My point about early techs is that each tech does not give you an intellectual advantage over the AI. Their benefits are straight-forward and can be duplicated by the AI.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Basically:
AI is too dumb to use Flight as humans. So flight is a key tech....
AI is too dumb to use Flight as humans. So flight is a key tech....
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
Irrelevant - the AI will never be able to match you in the air.
Also, i have used frigrates to sink battleships - why? because of flight.
I have used my inferior rifleman to trample all over tanks, infantry, calvary, and even mechanized infantry - thanks there FLIGHT!
Let me say in different words:
When you reach flight, if no other AI is about to recieve it, or is working on that tech path, they are sitting ducks. you can use an inferior army to conquer the superpower.
When you get rifling, you have an advantage - but the AI will eventually catch up, and get rifling as well. While you can say the same about flight, your riflemen won't be able to go all out and cripple people on the verge of establishing the game-lead. You will be able to smash some face big time before the AI catches up, but Flight can put you so over the top that it will take more effort than promoting musketeers to catch up with you, or present you a true threat.
Flight does something special for you: It lets you take an inferior army that is not worth its own merit, and drive those macemen to victory against any type of defenders. Someday when i find a way to upload screenshots without signing up for something i will post you a screenie of my macemen winning the game because of air support.
Riflemen gives you something that on higher levels the AI will be "on par" with you, and should be getting it soon themselves. You can use it to wipe someone out - but flight will let your rifleman still be a winning team in the era of mechanized infantry.
Yes, there are units that make flight seem useless - thank god! Flight would be too broken if there werent! Thats why flight has an older brother called "Advanced Flight". You can get rifleman and sweep the board - but if your a peacemongering builder who likes to wait and wait and wait and make one killstrike - Flight will be the gamebreaker.
Yes our good friend Flight has his weaknesses and strengths - but if you get flight while the rest of the world is researching assembley line, physics or industrialism... that is better than getting riflemen while your opponents are just learning gunpowder. lets pretend the AI knew to make ALL of their musketman get the bonus vs gunpowder units and properly use siege - you would still wipe the board but it would take you long enough a time that SOMEBODY will get rifleman by the time you are able to fully win - and in higher difficulties it happens this way a lot.
Now, i have rarely had exclusive flight. The games i have had it, i have gone from being ready to concede but staying in another turn to see if there is hope - to WINNING when i should have lost.
Sigh. If you believe this, than you do not understand how to use fighters and you are not out-thinking the AI.
A destroyer will not kill a full-strength fighter, it will only damage it.
Fighters weaken ships, which means that your ships can now go in and finish off the AI ships without fear of losing. It's the same principle on land. A fighter can reduce a tank to strength 14, which a mere rifleman or cavalryman can finish off (consider: tanks do not recieve defensive bonuses and usually have cr promotions, whereas your riflemen will have combat promotions).
Fighters are the great equalizer. As I have already said, they eliminate comparative strengths of units.
Basically:
AI is too dumb to use Flight as humans. So flight is a key tech....
Precisely. It is simply another avenue for the human to out-think the AI. And, lol, if I were playing another human, I'm sure I'd out-think them with flight too.
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
Also, as i said that nobody has criticized - once you have flight, all you have to do is airlift an advance force - now your navy landing is complete! you get the best navy landing you can get, which im sure you will - and you will have backup troops on their borders with their neighbor.
If you can talk their neighbor into cancel deals then your troops can retreat there to heal. Attacking on 2 fronts gives you better persistence. When you get rifleman, it's not like you can take them to any landmass RIGHT NOW to start a campaign. You can airlift to your enemies neighbor, declare war, enter - he diverts troops to counter the armies he sees, and now your beach-head invasion is uncountered - because his "counter force" is dealing with airlifted troops. Does riflemen give you this edge?
If you can talk their neighbor into cancel deals then your troops can retreat there to heal. Attacking on 2 fronts gives you better persistence. When you get rifleman, it's not like you can take them to any landmass RIGHT NOW to start a campaign. You can airlift to your enemies neighbor, declare war, enter - he diverts troops to counter the armies he sees, and now your beach-head invasion is uncountered - because his "counter force" is dealing with airlifted troops. Does riflemen give you this edge?
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
If your playing against me, we will both be bee-lining flight because we both know how good it is, and while the rest of the world was building an army of rifles, we just might have to make a small alliance and show our macemen that flight lets melee beat guns.
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
I decided to bring another element to this debate:
Once everyone has flight, isn't it you who has the most planes?
Once everyone has rifling, do you think the others arent promoted vs gunpowder units? (ok, the AI isn't so smart but using the above-said riflemen strategy you have a lot of waste for your efforts. while your sending troop-lines of rifles you are vulnerable. But thanks to flight, you can have all of your cities equally defended. you can get DOW'd by the catherines who love to step on your toes right when your doing good, and counter her attack by AIRLIFTING to the cities she threatens.
does any other technology other than flight open up a dimension to the game where you have exclusive reign over the domain of?
Sure, if you can be so lucky to get chemistry you can use privateers to the same effect - and believe me, i do. but when the AI catches up and starts building better navy than i do, why do my frigrates sink battleships?
The answer is in the sky, my friend.
Once everyone has flight, isn't it you who has the most planes?
Once everyone has rifling, do you think the others arent promoted vs gunpowder units? (ok, the AI isn't so smart but using the above-said riflemen strategy you have a lot of waste for your efforts. while your sending troop-lines of rifles you are vulnerable. But thanks to flight, you can have all of your cities equally defended. you can get DOW'd by the catherines who love to step on your toes right when your doing good, and counter her attack by AIRLIFTING to the cities she threatens.
does any other technology other than flight open up a dimension to the game where you have exclusive reign over the domain of?
Sure, if you can be so lucky to get chemistry you can use privateers to the same effect - and believe me, i do. but when the AI catches up and starts building better navy than i do, why do my frigrates sink battleships?
The answer is in the sky, my friend.
r_rolo1
King of myself
If you live that long.....
The interesting part is that all of the things that thadian and sirsnuggles are praising in Flight are things that they shun in other techs. Sorry , my friends, but that is not coherent.
And P.S: If I see a player massing airships, I do not wait for him to get flight ( would you? ). And Ships do take planes down ( never saw a plane suinking a ship in Civ IV and not even the AI is stupid enough to send alone ships )
The interesting part is that all of the things that thadian and sirsnuggles are praising in Flight are things that they shun in other techs. Sorry , my friends, but that is not coherent.
And P.S: If I see a player massing airships, I do not wait for him to get flight ( would you? ). And Ships do take planes down ( never saw a plane suinking a ship in Civ IV
and not even the AI is stupid enough to send alone ships )
thadian
Kami of Awakened Dreamers
i will happily lose 2 planes to sink your navy stack with my frigrates and ironclads, especially since air patrol tells me your moving transports over to me.
Im sure you will come for my throat - thats why i will be on my edge, and playing my A-Game. I am also sure you will beat me, as i am only a monarch level. It is not that i am shunning other techs - when i play multiplayer i am usually one of those guys who gets killed by the axeman rush, because of my peacemongering ways i have a hard time with the early game. Pardoning my weakness to the early rush, i have played about 50 multiplayer games and won 2 of them - why? because of flight.
Just like you called it, when i was massing airships, i was DOW'd and my airships and frigrates stalled some invasions. One guy sent a decoy of empty transports (HOW SMART! i was impressed) and his beach-head landing hit me hard. But while he was exposed, he was DOW'd on, and he picked his force right back up to his own lands, and when i got flight, i upgraded, turned my research to 0 for a few turns and had too many planes for anyone to touch.
I hope i am not trying to say i am a "pro" or even one of the "better players" here. But i am one who has seen flight break many games. Once i had a supermassive army but i let the AI get flight, while i was researching rocketry, and what happened?
My superior ground forces were grounded by planes and killed by axemen and macemen. Note that the AI does not think like you do - it sees you massing airships and does nothing because your power ranking starts going up.
Im sure you will come for my throat - thats why i will be on my edge, and playing my A-Game. I am also sure you will beat me, as i am only a monarch level. It is not that i am shunning other techs - when i play multiplayer i am usually one of those guys who gets killed by the axeman rush, because of my peacemongering ways i have a hard time with the early game. Pardoning my weakness to the early rush, i have played about 50 multiplayer games and won 2 of them - why? because of flight.
Just like you called it, when i was massing airships, i was DOW'd and my airships and frigrates stalled some invasions. One guy sent a decoy of empty transports (HOW SMART! i was impressed) and his beach-head landing hit me hard. But while he was exposed, he was DOW'd on, and he picked his force right back up to his own lands, and when i got flight, i upgraded, turned my research to 0 for a few turns and had too many planes for anyone to touch.
I hope i am not trying to say i am a "pro" or even one of the "better players" here. But i am one who has seen flight break many games. Once i had a supermassive army but i let the AI get flight, while i was researching rocketry, and what happened?
My superior ground forces were grounded by planes and killed by axemen and macemen. Note that the AI does not think like you do - it sees you massing airships and does nothing because your power ranking starts going up.
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