The naval unit progression.

[Starwars]

I was just playing an Archipelago map as Wilhelmina on Deity. And, as usually happens on these kinds of maps, there is a point where the Barbarians get a hold of caravels (I guess when someone researches that tech, is that how it works?).
Does anyone else find that the leap from a galley (and quadrireme) up the caravels is quite steep. Or is it just extra noticeable for some reason with it being naval units? A caravel can very nearly oneshot a galley (maybe they can with an unpromoted unit) and it's just rather... well, what do you do?

I don't know, I'm not the biggest naval player in the world but would it be a good thing to have an extra unit somewhere along the line between galleys and caravels?

 

[Uberfrog]

The naval line suffers from having relatively few techs to work with (which perhaps makes a little sense since a non-coastal civ would like to ignore these techs for a long time anyway).

As a result there's effectively a missing era's worth of units from the naval lines when compared with land. The resulting jump in CS is much higher than what you see on land.

Galley (25) -> Caravel (50)
Quadrireme (25/20) -> Frigate (55/45)

compares with

Warrior (20) -> Swordsman (36) -> Musketman (55)
Archer (25/15) -> Crossbowman (40/30) -> Field Cannon (60/50)

They should add a couple more naval techs and introduce a Classical upgrade for the Galley (a Quinquereme with 35 CS, requires Iron) and an Early Renaissance upgrade for the Quadrireme* (a Galleass with 40/35 CS, requires Iron). Caravels and Frigates would then require Nitre.

*Which I would rename a Trireme to make it more distinct from the Quinquereme... nobody really used Quads anyway...

 

[Ziad]

Ironically makes ancient ship UUs have the longest period of relevance.

 

[Uberfrog]

Actually having looked at the GS tech tree, you don't even need to add the new techs. The naval techs are now much more linked to the rest of the tree via the new Buttress Tech and the repositioned Military Tactics. So shove the Quinquereme in with Celestial Navigation or Construction and the Galleass in with Military Engineering or Gunpowder and the job's a good'un.

I might make this a mod.

Ironically makes ancient ship UUs have the longest period of relevance.

I think Phoenicia's burly Biremes (30 CS, 6 (!) movement) will rule the waves for a very long time.

 

[Ziad]

I think Phoenicia's burly Biremes (30 CS, 6 (!) movement) will rule the waves for a very long time.

Yep it makes sense they'd give them an ancient naval unit that can rule the seas (along with their Cothon benefits) for up to four entire eras til someone picks up Caravels and Frigates.

I doubt they'd add an intermediate unit like that without buffing Phoenicia and Norway somewhere else.

 

[Uberfrog]

Yep it makes sense they'd give them an ancient naval unit that can rule the seas (along with their Cothon benefits) for up to four entire eras til someone picks up Caravels and Frigates.

I doubt they'd add an intermediate unit like that without buffing Phoenicia and Norway somewhere else.

Honestly I think the units would still be decent enough without the buff, especially with the movement bonuses (and coastal raiding for longships). Galleys are super quick to get and the early exploration usually pays for itself in terms of city state envoys.

But yeah it seems to be a moot point since Firaxis doesn’t seem to care much about naval combat.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The other 'partial solution' is to admit that Barbarians/Pirates NEVER used Capital ships like Quadiremes or Quinqueremes. A major warship in any period, whether it was a Trireme or a Frigate/Ship of the Line or Battleship, always required industrial technologies and capital investment that simply wasn't available to the average pirate or 'barbarian'. Their ships tend to be a class lower on the naval scale: biremes or liburnians when the regular navies had Quinquermes, sloop-like ships when the navies had Frigates, motor boats today when the navies have Missile Frigates.

So one solution would be that Barbarian Ships are a separate Class, in each case being slightly weaker than the 'regular' equivalent, but perhaps +1 faster and able to 'raid' coastal tiles/civilian units and Improvements, which was, in fact, the primary menace from piracy up to the Industrial Era.
Example:
Start/Ancient Era:
Barbarian Galley Move: 4 Melee: 20
Medieval Era:
Pirate Ballinger Move: 4 Melee: 30
Industrial Era:
Pirate Barque Move: 5 Melee: 45
Atomic Era:
Pirate Yacht Move: 5 Melee: 50

These are only sample ideas: there are a lot of non-European boat/ship types that could be used instead, and the 'Pirate' or Barbarian ships after the Renaissance Era should have the capability of being Invisible unless adjacent, since by the Industrial Era regular warships increasingly outstrip their combat capabilities by wide margins.

 

[Ziad]

Barbarians don't build their ships. They steal them

 

[Karmah]

Barbarians don't build their ships. They steal them

It kind of raises a question which is far more delicate and with a huge potential for controversy : 'who are the barbarians ? '

 

[Ziad]

It kind of raises a question which is far more delicate and with a huge potential for controversy : 'who are the barbarians ? '

Warlords. Pirates. Thugs. Bandits. Ruffians. Thieves. Exiles.

Or they could be other civilizations that you never bothered to truly understand. That Barbarian camp over there you just cleared? That was Portugal.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

It kind of raises a question which is far more delicate and with a huge potential for controversy : 'who are the barbarians ? '

The game's ripe for a re-think of the early era, with barbarians, goody huts, city states, and tiles outside of your cultural borders all potential sources of a new approach to the exploration of the world and the game interactions between "us" and "them".

 

[Depravo]

The game's ripe for a re-think of the early era, with barbarians, goody huts, city states, and tiles outside of your cultural borders all potential sources of a new approach to the exploration of the world and the game interactions between "us" and "them".

So much truth. It took them until Civ 5 to add city states. Until then, once you had cleared the huts, the human population outside major state societies was less useful and relatable than the xenofungus in SMAC.

Unfortunately, almost by its nature grand strategy has always been awful at portraying shades of grey.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The game's ripe for a re-think of the early era, with barbarians, goody huts, city states, and tiles outside of your cultural borders all potential sources of a new approach to the exploration of the world and the game interactions between "us" and "them".

Been here before, so I'll say it again:
No Barbarian Camps, No Goodie Huts.
Settlements, which can be Hostile (Barbarian Camp Mode), Friendly (Modified Goodie Hut Mode) or Neutral.
Diplomacy, Bribes, Intimidation, Random Events can change their status.
Goodie Hut/Friendly Settlements do not disappear when they 'gift' you something, unless they migrate to your nearest city as a Unit, Builder, or Settler.
Friendly or Neutral Settlements can be Traded With and may provide Resources you have trouble getting any other way.

This a Massive Change from the way Civ has handled 'Barbarians' and 'Tribal Villages' in the past, but it is at once more historically realistic, more flexible, and provides a much more interesting game, especially in the early and mid-game when your interactions with Settlements may be more frequent than interactions with City States or other Civs

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Been here before, so I'll say it again:
No Barbarian Camps, No Goodie Huts.
Settlements, which can be Hostile (Barbarian Camp Mode), Friendly (Modified Goodie Hut Mode) or Neutral.
Diplomacy, Bribes, Intimidation, Random Events can change their status.
Goodie Hut/Friendly Settlements do not disappear when they 'gift' you something, unless they migrate to your nearest city as a Unit, Builder, or Settler.
Friendly or Neutral Settlements can be Traded With and may provide Resources you have trouble getting any other way.

This a Massive Change from the way Civ has handled 'Barbarians' and 'Tribal Villages' in the past, but it is at once more historically realistic, more flexible, and provides a much more interesting game, especially in the early and mid-game when your interactions with Settlements may be more frequent than interactions with City States or other Civs

The early game is already a strength of the Civ series. This type of re-boot would make it even better!

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The early game is already a strength of the Civ series. This type of re-boot would make it even better!

With some tweaking beyond these specifics, it would add something to the middle and late game as well, since you could be seriously concerned with keeping Settlements and City States alive and well for their benefit as sources of Trade and Raw Materials (Resources), as opposed to risking major Grievance issues by trying conquer sources of Resources in the last half of the game.

 

[acluewithout]

It’s all been discussed before I know, but it really wouldn’t take much to make barbarians and goody huts way more interesting, and doing so would make the (already good) early game even better.

 

[Prester John 2]

If anyone were to make a mod with Boris' suggestions I would be very glad. Especially the changes to Barbarian ships - give them the ability to raid coastal shores (Norwegian ability), make them faster, and given them vision of naval traders - don't seem to be too difficult to implement.

 

[Victoria]

I am a huge naval player. However I find the AI at sea is sunk before it starts.
The only times I find the sea game a challenge is

1 when my galley meets 3 quads
2 when the barbs can make Caravels.

1 is easy to deal with by running away but with 2, unless you were leading the sea race you just cannot leave home for fear of being one shotted. I feel losing this would be a travesty, there needs to be a little bit of fear at least once in an entire history.

 

[mitsho]

Regarding the early game, I agree on a rework, I would even go so far as to suggest splitting up civ into 4 separate mini-games, meaning that each era plays different from the previous one. So your civ can be a moving tribe in one and a colonial empire in another...

As for naval, yes the difference is steep, but I never had big problems with promoted ships. I do play on rather small maps though.

I would switch the first two ships though so that the first one you get is the ranged one and can interact with the land. Ships also need to get a „clear that goodie hut or barb camp“-ability with a range of two. The naval raider one.

 

[Draco84]

Been here before, so I'll say it again:
No Barbarian Camps, No Goodie Huts.
Settlements, which can be Hostile (Barbarian Camp Mode), Friendly (Modified Goodie Hut Mode) or Neutral.

Diplomacy, Bribes, Intimidation, Random Events can change their status.
Goodie Hut/Friendly Settlements do not disappear when they 'gift' you something, unless they migrate to your nearest city as a Unit, Builder, or Settler.
Friendly or Neutral Settlements can be Traded With and may provide Resources you have trouble getting any other way.

This would be similar to a mix of Sid Meier's colonization and Conquest of the new World. I could definately get behind this. I miss the barb cities in civ 4.

My biggest concern would be their teaching up space on the map which is already right.