The Navy (once again)

[Polobo]

@Magister - Thanks for the detailed response; just getting started with FfH and obviously this particular scenario does (edit: not) arise with core Civ4 units.

 

[Drakmondt]

If you dominate the navy you could have 'mages' casting spells from the ships
and then all your mages are SAFE from assasins. If you dont have access to fire you could throw in some arcane barrage to cast some fireballs.

I say that there do exist ways to use the navy to support a land war.

One of the problems is speed: it just seems to slow, when a raiders horsemens can move 9 spaces each turn. But if you increase the speed of your navy, you can do your thing and move your ships to safty long before the enemies navy could react.

Vision would help. Could we make the arcane barrage a carrier so that it can carry birds? Would be a simple and wonderfull addition. And kind of fit to I think.

Another ide is when loading or unloading units the ship could move no further. Or
to be able to unload units the ships could not have moved before. That way ships
could be made realy realy fast without any problems. Cuz you still have to wait 1 turn before unloading units.

I also find it borring that the ManOwar is so dominating at the end.

I like the Idea to have to stop transportships for 1 turn to are able to unload them,
another possible choice would be that only 1 or 2 units can invade the coast per turn from a ship that maybe can carry 8 units.

Mages on ships with the Spell"floating eye"+"range" can scout
a great carrier would not fit in the FFH World in my opinion

The oceans are too small for the continents so it might be better to
not increase the speed of ships too much... or there must be much more waterspace and thats not good for the gamespeed

Some special tripespecific seaunits like in the CivIII WarhammerMod would be nice... maybe
mechanic megahummers and crabs hard to crack (Garrim Gyr)
ozeanic demonarks that spread flammes on ocean (Hyborem)
ships kobolds that can do crazy things like steal other units the orientation (Perpentach)
armored dreadnoughts with longrangecatapults (Arturus Thorne)
bloodthirsty praehistoric giantsharks (Alexis)
swimming foresteilands that are vulnerable to fire (Amelanchier)
fast mounted seahorses (Tasunke)
priestmounted dolphins with far sight (Einion Logos)
growing Alga carpets that blockade the coastline at home (Os-Gabella)
pack ice that freeze the ocean step by step (Auric Ulvin)
... and different stuff for the other civilisations

something to makes it more useful to control the oceans...
traderouts between coastcitys and citys in overseas that are shown in the city, and you could build merchantships traveling on the routs.
or...
Merchantships that load a resource icon(buildable in the town) based on what is near the town and can send to a town in another state. Longer journeys and better resources generates more gold that can be brought to own towns raising the players goldaccount...
but be aware maybe theres a pirateship near and hopefully no Lanuns

I would prefare my second Idea

 

[arkham4269]

As people know, I've been pushing for a semi-steam punk Gnomish race, but regardless of that, I think the game could also use some subs. Now anyone who has played Flagship Game's "Pirates" with the Floaties & Sinkies add-on, will know they have these neat steam ships like so.

If the Luichirp can make a Clockwork Golem, they could make this as well as steam torpedoes. Even w/o torpedoes, the subs could attack like the Nautilus did by ramming.

Plus, what happened to the summoning of the Kraken, have I haven't seen them since they stopped having Summoners. Am I just not building, promoting the right unit?

 

[arkham4269]

I think that in some respects naval vessels should have a promotion based on the tech level. So similar to how melee units convert from stone to bronze to iron to mithril, ships would promote like so.

Level 1 (Equivalent to Pre-Bronze): Ship is just a boat with people on it. (Not passengers, just the crew with melee weapons)

Level 2 (With Archery): Ships now have better attack due to large dart throwers such as the ballista. Plus the crew can have archers.

Level 3 (With With Construction: Ships now have catapults. It would be nice to have access to a Greek Fire promotion which would make the ships attack nastier, but with the Arcane Barge (Why is it a Barge; shouldn't it be Arcane Fireship?) it's probably not needed.

Level 4 (With Gunpowder): Ships now have access either to canons, cannonades or catapult launched grenades, since I'm not sure all races have access to canons.

I think this system would be nice since it would allow even older ships to get more powerful. This is especially good since the AI isn't really good about upgrading it's older ships, they'd at least be more dangerous.

I must say, shouldn't ships and gunpowder units have the vulnerability to fire trait? I don't know about you, but a fireball into your gunpowder stores is never a good thing!

 

[Drakmondt]

for summonin a Kraken you need:
•Requires: Divine, Channeling 3
•Can only be cast next to the water
•Summons a Kraken (Permanent)
Octopus Overlords is the religion of that spell
...and Channeling 3 only a few units have, like archmage, lich or some heroes

 

[srmacpherson]

I
Some special tripespecific seaunits like in the CivIII WarhammerMod would be nice... maybe

This is exactly what I was thinking when I began reading this thread several minutes ago. This thread began with the whole "We need more variety in sea units" discussion. And BLAMMO! 4 pages later, the right idea is struck.

The first thought in my mind went to a Dwarven ship, big, plated with armour and rockin' a mighty cannon. Going up against a jagged, sharp, dangerous-looking Clan ship with a catapult that launches goblin boarding parties at it's foes. Though not the same sort of boarding party that the Lanun flaunts which I understand captures ships

But pretty Civ-Spec Units is one of the features of FfH that got me started playing this mod (magic of course was the main one).

Also, I always figured that the Arcane Barge was an Amurite-specific ship until my third game and finally tried out a different civ.

 

[srmacpherson]

I think that in some respects naval vessels should have a promotion based on the tech level. So similar to how melee units convert from stone to bronze to iron to mithril, ships would promote like so.

Also something I was thinking of suggesting as I read the forum. Someone had brought this up earlier with the Trireme's ramming nose I think. I'm surprised that this has not already been implemented. The bronze-iron-mithril upgrade is automatic as long as you are within your own borders I think. It should be easy to make things work for ships.

Ships with cannon/explosives are the perfect automatic upgrade for civs that gain access to gunpowder.

 

[arkham4269]

In a different forum talking about archers and barrage and the like, I subitted the idea that mages with the Fair Winds promotion should be able to use this spell defensively to push aside winds. I mean if you can push a ship, you should be able to deflect arrows, right?

Following up on that idea, I think that perhaps instead of always upgrading to offensive Lightning, there should be the option of having a spell called, perhaps, Tempest. This defensive spell, when cast, will give an increased defensive bonus like so. (These figures are just an example)
10% vs. melee: hard to fight with really hard blowing wind coming right at you.
15% vs. ranged: harder to get your arrows to hit.
20% vs. ships: as above but also while winds make it hard to walk into, on water, those winds would make it hard to maneuver. Rowed vessels like the galley & trireme are historically very bad in choppy, stormy seas and the winds would definitely make it extremely difficult to get close if you had a sailing ship.

I like this idea as well since often the Lightning spell is useless when fighting in border areas, fighting with allies and/or vassal troops. Plus with the current patch, I'm finding that it's even affecting certain units of my own, although I think this might be a bug.

 

[Blackmantle]

Affecting own units is not! a bug. Its a feature depicted in the Changelog. Just go and look it up.
It was done to balance the spell. Which was arguably the most powerful Level 2 spell available before...

 

[arkham4269]

One of the things I've come up with on thinking things through about ships is that many of the things that might make neat promotions are ins some respects already covered by promotions. That, and I'm having some trouble trying to come up with 'fantastical' stuff for ships. However, for the basics of ships I've come up with this. Note, these ships are done in mind of being able to have them upgrade by promotion to better weapons as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Coastal Ships:
Galley (transport): At first I thought that there should be a initial vessel that does nothing but explore similar to the coracle in other mods, but I think it isn't really necessary since the tech tree is so small. However, I see the galley as representing all the manner of early small transport and/or merchant ships and thus shouldn't have to a promotion to get a cargo space, but would have one already. Oh, a note on the Dragonship. I don't really see the need for this ship since you can just build a galley with off/def promotions. Personally I think it's not worth the time to build and when I think dragonship, I expect it to breath fire!

Trireme (Off/Def): Since this vessel does use a ram, I like the idea by srmacpherson that these would promote like a melee unit by bronze/iron/mithril. Plus, as mentioned above, promotions can represent many things, but these might have access to a 'corvus' promotion that gives a better bonus to capture ships (that is a different post entirely).

War Galley (Off/Def): Why a war galley? Again, there were lots of different rowed ships going up to the age of sail and many of them did not ram. So depending on the tech, their weapons change. That and they'd be faster then the Trireme but probably would require another tech before building them.

Early Ocean Ships:
Drekkar (transport): Here is a ship that I'd like to see that harkens back to an idea that I think is as old as Civ II. An early ocean going ship that has a chance to sink every turn it's turn is ended in an ocean square. However, unlike the caravel, it can carry any type of unit. In some respects this not only represents Viking ships, but the Polynesian outriggers and Maori Waka Ama. Now I would think that this type of ship would be restricted to certain Civs like Lunan, Svartalfar and maybe the Doviello (I think they need all the help they can get) although I'm sure there are arguments could be made for others.

Caravel (Explore): I did a lot of looking and while the Caravel could be used for general transport and later designs got bigger for combat ships, the description and historical use does fit the role of the explore carrying only specialty units.

Galleas (Off/Def): The big dog on the block prior to advent of the Galleon type ships. While Galleas per se where not build in large numbers, this ships represents various types of larger, more modern (and multi-leveled) War Galleys that depended more on sails than oars.

Mid Ocean: I split Early from Mid Ocean because while Galleas could be made more than just coastal ships, they still mostly were used in the Mediterranean Sea as well as up and down the coast of Europe. So either they start as coastal and can gain the ability to travel on the ocean after Optics is researched, or they, like the drekkar, have a chance to sink if ending a turn in a ocean square.

Fluyt (transport): While digging around the history of ships, I decided that it is better to make a break between the early sea ships (which their are a LOT of as anyone who has played Pirates! know) and the Galleons. This ship would take the place of the Galleon in the current FfF/FF.

Frigate/Brigantine (Off/Def): This one surprised me. I think most people are like me and think of Frigates only as the Napoleonic era ship, but originally the original Frigate was a a stripped down galleas made to be more maneuverable and then later was the same concept applied to the galleon. Plus, the term frigate was also initially used as a term for a ship customized for war. So the graphic in this case might be changed to Brigantine which was one of the more common styles of early frigate to reflect this. (more on the Frigate below)

Late Ocean
Galleon (transport): Not much change needed here other than taking the Queen of the Line and changing the name. This ship represents galleons and many of the 'merchantmen' class of ships that had big holds but didn't have many crew. Personally, if you wanted a really tough cargo ship, you'd need to add War Galleons, but I don't think with the promotion system that is merited.

Man of War (Off/Def): Personally I think Man of War is a better term since the whole 'Ship of the Line' predicates fleets fighting in a line and in a fantasy battle, I'm not sure that would happen.

Ship issues: Many people have been discussing in this thread the lack of naval 'flair' I guess. The problem is that you can't really make ships different except by A: how they are powered (rowing, sailing, steam/coal/oil) B: What they're made out of (wood/steel) and C: their armaments (small-arms, boarders, catapult/dart throwers, ramming, cannons, missiles, torpedoes, carrier planes). Since we're pretty much limited to rowing & sailing, not much can be done there as well as being confined to wood. That just leaves the armaments. So to get the flair, I think that we all need to get our thinking caps on and do what Drakmondt did and work out mostly Civ specific fantasy elements to ADD to the basic ship designs. I mean you can make a big difference in cavalry by changing what you ride as well as different races to make melee units different, but when it comes to ships, I think the basic designs I've outlined is pretty much it and thus the flair will have to come from either different Civ graphics for the same ships and/or the addition of more fantastical water units.

Other ships
Late Frigate: As mentioned earlier, the Frigate was mostly just a term for any merchant vessel that had been modified to a war design. However, if wanted, the 17th century Frigate could be used in addition to and replacing the earlier brigantine. I'm thinking with you might want a ship tougher than any pimped out Galleon, but faster than a MoW, especially for fighting against pirates.

Arcane Barge/Fireship: As mentioned, I don't like the term barge; that denotes a river ship. However, I'm wondering the use for this ship. Certainly it's a 1 unit build, but I can't help but think it would be a better and more cost effective to build a ship and then build a adept, especially if you have access to both fire and air mana. This way you have a ship that can still be used for transport if needed and the adept grows with experience so once it promotes to a mage, you dump him off and put on a new adept.

Pirates: I will comment on this in a new post (especially since this one is already huge) but I don't think there should be a specific Pirate ship, but rather certain ships should be able to be created as Pirates when built. I mean piracy is as old as men getting into boats so you shouldn't have to wait till later in the game to build pirates. Of course some ships that are directly built for war like a War Galley, Man of War and Late Frigate couldn't be made into pirates since historically pirate ships were almost always converted transport ships and the military ships created to hunt them.

Specialty ships: I still think some sort of submarine would be neat and I've been pushing for their to be creation of a "Flying" class of creatures that can only be attacked by ranged combat (unless they attack you) and would have the promotion "wings". Things like griffins, (small) dragon's with riders and the like. Then you could have carriers sort of like seen in Naomi Noviks "Temeraire" series.

 

[arkham4269]

It was done to balance the spell. Which was arguably the most powerful Level 2 spell available before...

That I can believe. I must have missed it in the change log.

That being said, it does give another reason to have a different version of a spell for air users. Plus that use would go well with the Fall Further race Austrin's whole theme.

 

[arkham4269]

Some special tribe specific sea units...might be nice.

I'm wondering, since there is obviously a way to make one unit (say a warrior) look different depending on which Civ your playing, I'm wondering if you could have something like a 'brood pen' requiring a harbor that would allow you to build/breed a 'generic' sea-going unit. Thus the elves might have elves riding dolphin like 'cavalry' while the Sheaim have some sort of Sea Dragon. All would have the same sort of stats, but they'd at least look different. Either that or you'd might have various generic units that different Civ's could share. Some ideas might be:

Water 'cavalry': As mentioned above, some form of dolphin/shark or whale riding unit. Different races would use different graphics. Elves on dolphins versus Orcs on sharks perhaps. Biggest problem I have with units like this is why having them over just a ship. My view (one that I'll elaborate more soon in a post about Piracy) is that I think these units could capture ships since some of the 'wave-riders' could carry extra troops.

Water Monsters: Just like in Pirates of the Caribbean, critters on demand! Again evil races might have sea dragons and good races might have whales, especially white ones!

Specialty Units: Of the top of my head I'm thinking Sirens that come with a tougher Charm person attack (sort of naval succubi) and might possibly be a additional Sheam/Kahdi unit to come through their gates if the city has a harbor. Obviously the Dwarves would have to have something like steam-driven subs or perhaps a mechanical/golem monster shark.

Another thought is to have a way to different paths for mages. Maybe something to think about in another thread but originally there were mages and summoners. Now summoning is tied in with mages and locked in with mostly land units. Perhaps there could be an early promotion (if a seperate unit wasn't wanted) that would designate the unit to be a 'water mage' and thus would have variants of the spells the land mages use. Thus you'd have things like Fair Wind and the like, but newer spells tailored more used on the ocean.

For example, if you have life/nature mana and if they ever come up with the 'evil kelp' that spreads in Hell Terrain zones, they could clear it. They would summon water/air creatures. Perhaps maybe even be able to create Drown regardless of religion (although I think there would be a AC penalty or only be used by evil/neutral races)

Plus shouldn't their be a unit/spell that should allow the capture of water monsters in the way that land creatures are taken?

 

[avalonnn]

Not really anything you can do, at least without serious SDK changes. No unit with cargo can be cargo at the same time, and units can only carry units of one domain (land, air, sea). (If they carry specialunit type cargo, like bird, they can only carry units of that domain and specialunit type.)

I asked Kael to change this a long time ago, but he said it could cause too many problems.

Lanun UU!

arrrrr. what ye see be not a pirate ship -- 'tis a parrot ship! That's why it be so smallllll. arrr

 

[Drakmondt]

I'm wondering, since there is obviously a way to make one unit (say a warrior) look different depending on which Civ your playing, I'm wondering if you could have something like a 'brood pen' requiring a harbor that would allow you to build/breed a 'generic' sea-going unit. Thus the elves might have elves riding dolphin like 'cavalry' while the Sheaim have some sort of Sea Dragon. All would have the same sort of stats, but they'd at least look different. Either that or you'd might have various generic units that different Civ's could share. Some ideas might be:

Water 'cavalry': As mentioned above, some form of dolphin/shark or whale riding unit. Different races would use different graphics. Elves on dolphins versus Orcs on sharks perhaps. Biggest problem I have with units like this is why having them over just a ship. My view (one that I'll elaborate more soon in a post about Piracy) is that I think these units could capture ships since some of the 'wave-riders' could carry extra troops.

Water Monsters: Just like in Pirates of the Caribbean, critters on demand! Again evil races might have sea dragons and good races might have whales, especially white ones!

Specialty Units: Of the top of my head I'm thinking Sirens that come with a tougher Charm person attack (sort of naval succubi) and might possibly be a additional Sheam/Kahdi unit to come through their gates if the city has a harbor. Obviously the Dwarves would have to have something like steam-driven subs or perhaps a mechanical/golem monster shark.

Another thought is to have a way to different paths for mages. Maybe something to think about in another thread but originally there were mages and summoners. Now summoning is tied in with mages and locked in with mostly land units. Perhaps there could be an early promotion (if a seperate unit wasn't wanted) that would designate the unit to be a 'water mage' and thus would have variants of the spells the land mages use. Thus you'd have things like Fair Wind and the like, but newer spells tailored more used on the ocean.

For example, if you have life/nature mana and if they ever come up with the 'evil kelp' that spreads in Hell Terrain zones, they could clear it. They would summon water/air creatures. Perhaps maybe even be able to create Drown regardless of religion (although I think there would be a AC penalty or only be used by evil/neutral races)

Plus shouldn't their be a unit/spell that should allow the capture of water monsters in the way that land creatures are taken?

I think different units for the civs should have different attributs, only other grafiks makes the game not better..
but it should be much more than stone, Scissors, paper

There should be much more units that can capture ships, but there might be a problem with that, because when for example a privateer defeat a monster and there would be a chance to capture it.. it would be strange

There is a watermonster in the game right now, the Leviathan could randomly
appear in new games. Some unique monsters for Sheaiim and other civs for the later techs would be nice, of course. (I remember that Kael had written long ago that there should be not too much superunits and artifacts in the game, so that they are really unique. And I agree with that.)

I like the idea with the Sirens, but it should be a limited unit, or maybe barbarian on a one tile island,and if you come to close the Siren have a chance to charm.

Spells like Fair Wind and others that might useful on the oceans could be added to the arcan barke. The end of the conjurers shows that water mages have no chance.

The different units for the religions are a good feature and differentiating the civs is a major concept of the mod, maybe there can be barbarian drowns that can spawn on the oceans.

If it would be possible to give mages the abillity to give other landunits the waterwalking promotion(maybe for some turns) beastmaster can hunt on the ocean and a new spell is not necessary.
Additionally hunters have only the promotion to capture animals and where would be no conflict with ships like the problem with units with the abillity to capture ships but also monster/animals, certainly there would be an easy way to fix that over the promotion.

 

[avalonnn]

perhaps the kraken could "eat" ships to regain health? or is that possible already?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, if you use the cannibalism promotion then it will only work against living units, which excludes ships. However, you could easily have a <PythonPostCombatWon> function handle it (like lightning elementals have).

 

[arkham4269]

There is a water monster in the game right now, the Leviathan could randomly appear in new games. Some unique monsters for Sheaiim and other civs for the later techs would be nice, of course. (I remember that Kael had written long ago that there should be not too much superunits and artifacts in the game, so that they are really unique. And I agree with that.)

Yes, but what I really meant was that 'water monster' is just a term for sea animal that works like the wolves, lions, bears and the like. Tough and nasty against galleys and the like, but not invincible. The Leviathan is something that you have to work to kill so in that since it is a "Hero" monster as opposed to a "Animal" monster. You wouldn't be able to tame a 'Hero" monster.

 

[arkham4269]

I think different units for the civs should have different attributes, only other graphics makes the game not better..
but it should be much more than stone, Scissors, paper

Well for me, different graphics makes the game more visually pleasing and thus more fun. That being said, I have no problem with the different units having different abilities. I mean elves on dolphins are going to fight differently than Orcs on sharks. My point was that if people were going to put these together and didn't want to go to nuts on designing and working on game balance, they could be the equivalent of a water warrior where a lot of difference in the unit isn't needed.

I was thinking that another version could be 'sea chariots' where you have the chariot being pulled by sea turtles, dolphins or the like. That unit would be the 'upgrade' unit and might be able to capture ships via borders.

 

[Drakmondt]

Well for me, different graphics makes the game more visually pleasing and thus more fun. That being said, I have no problem with the different units having different abilities. I mean elves on dolphins are going to fight differently than Orcs on sharks. My point was that if people were going to put these together and didn't want to go to nuts on designing and working on game balance, they could be the equivalent of a water warrior where a lot of difference in the unit isn't needed.

I was thinking that another version could be 'sea chariots' where you have the chariot being pulled by sea turtles, dolphins or the like. That unit would be the 'upgrade' unit and might be able to capture ships via borders.

Long time ago I played civIIIwarhammermod with some friends, and we played it a long time after the realease of civ4, because the gameconcept was much better then vanillaciv4. The better graphics couldn't motivate us to change the game... ffh1 persuaded us to use civ4.
I don't say that better newer graphics are not nice, but(for me) strategy and gameplay comes first. But you are right we talk about different things, I agree with you that different graphics for the civs would be an Enrichment for the game.

To convert the whole landsystem appears a liddle bit boringly to me, its true that this is an easy way, but areal new improvement sounds different for me, and the landscapebonuses that the civs take advantage from, like hillls/dwarfs and forests/elves would be not useable.

An upgradesystem would be nice, aspecially for the computerplayers, so that they can upgrade their outdated ships. New units like chariots on the sea that are upraded from dolphinriders sounds great.

 

[Drakmondt]

Yes, but what I really meant was that 'water monster' is just a term for sea animal that works like the wolves, lions, bears and the like. Tough and nasty against galleys and the like, but not invincible. The Leviathan is something that you have to work to kill so in that since it is a "Hero" monster as opposed to a "Animal" monster. You wouldn't be able to tame a 'Hero" monster.

On the oceans, the Leviathan is a hero right now, especially if he had destroyed a few small unit to gain promotions and a fregatte is nothing for a strength 18 unit.

Ok, you means something like the Sailor's Dirge, but with the strength of the Leviathan. That unit would collect xp without battle and you can not capture it because its no animal. Invincible in battle is no hero unit(please do not talk about loki with me ) also an Avatar of Wrath on the water can be destroyed with enough Fireballs, Ships other units and Spells.

Barbarian units that moves alone throw the world you can defeat easyly a unit under playercontrol with escort and multible stacks to Support is another thing