[C3C] The Nine Conquests
- Thread starter Lanzelot
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Toxicman007
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Fascinating stuff, Lanzelot! As a mostly Emperor player, I always find it very interesting to see the big boy Deity strategies. Even more so for strategies in the Conquests!
Okay, I did something like this, and the first result I got: Apparently setting a bunch of cities to too high of culture just totally borks the game. I did get this hilarious mapstat screenie from when I'd set the AI's culture to like, 900,000 in a bunch of cities surrounding the one I captured, but then it just didn't flip and mapstat could no longer get any flip info or any other info at all:
I eventually toned it down to giving the AI a bunch of size 25 cities with 100 culture, and mapstat still got that as having an over 100% chance of a culture flip.
The Victory Status Screen did in fact count the inevitable flip as a lost city for me for elimination purposes.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
That is good to know for the Fall of Rome scenario on higher difficulty levels! I will have to raze Roman cities, once I get dangerously close to the 8 city limit. (But in the beginning I will have to keep some, because I already hit the max. number of Armies limit... I currently have an idle MGL and can't build an Army...! Will hopefully be able to update the game on the weekend.)
Update: the second attempt at Fall of Rome is now completed successfully. 6 more to go...
Nicely done on that Vandal campaign! I thought you might pull a rabbit out of a hat with the Huns and come back from behind like in your Persian game, but alas. It was not to be.
I also learned something - that you get victory points for all the units belonging to a defeated-by-elimination civ. I'd never noticed that before, although Fall of Rome was probably my least-played of the Conquests, and I haven't played many other elimination-based scenarios.
So, Middle Ages next? I'll be curious who you pick for that one. So far I've seen that, likely coincidentally, you've won with the same civ choxorn picked for two of the first three - so I'll guess Cordoba for the fourth one!
I also learned something - that you get victory points for all the units belonging to a defeated-by-elimination civ. I'd never noticed that before, although Fall of Rome was probably my least-played of the Conquests, and I haven't played many other elimination-based scenarios.
So, Middle Ages next? I'll be curious who you pick for that one. So far I've seen that, likely coincidentally, you've won with the same civ choxorn picked for two of the first three - so I'll guess Cordoba for the fourth one!
What sort of infrastructure do you have for the Fall of Rome scenario? Granted, an army is usually vastly more powerful than an infrastructure rush (rushing the forbidden palace in a highly corrupt but high shield potential is a possible exception). It sounds even harder to imagine an infrastructure rush for a scenario like this that requires speed, but some game conditions suggest that infrastructure rushing can be powerful even if not as powerful as an army. In the classic game, forbidden palace, heroic epic, factories, universities come to mind. A courthouse could also help setup something like a not too bad worker pump in a highly corrupt area also, I suppose, and then those workers could help chop in courthouses in nearby corrupt towns I suppose also. Oh... the Secret Police Head Quarters, I would guess also, if there existed enough motivation to go for communism.
- Well, Egypt for the first one was coincidence. I had read choxorn's series about ten years ago and certainly did not remember many details...
Egypt simply appeared to be the best choice for a Deity game for the reasons stated in the description. - Then I picked the Persians in the second one for similar reasons. I was about one third through the second one, when I decided I could reread choxorn's stories for some tips. Reading choxorn's Macedonian campaign confirmed, that Macedonia might have been to difficult on Deity.
- As I did not want to repeat what choxorn already did, I chose the Huns for the third one. And when that one failed and I wanted to try one of the northern barbarians, I first checked the other choices. But the Ostro- and Visigoths have too poor starting land, didn't want to do that on Deity. And for the Franks and Anglo-Saxons I did not like that their capital was pre-founded in a poor location and that they were crowding each other. So setting up a powerful core quickly would not be possible: it would involve a relocation of the capital and possibly a war against the other neighbor for the best city foundations along the River Rhine -- delaying the war against Rome. So the only choice left was the Vandals. They simply have the best starting location end enough space for one ring, before they run into any neighbors...
The Sassanids would probably also provide good winning chances for this scenario, but as it is very similar to the Persians in the Rise of Rome, I did not want to repeat that. Seemed too "cheap".
I had nearly no infrastructure this time around. (Lesson learned from the Hun attempt. It takes too much time and does not pay off in a short game like this.) I had built The Scourge of God very early on, which combines the effects of Heroic Epic & Pentagon. (Don't know, whether these two can even be built in this scenario? They never appeared in my build box. Possibly because I already had the Scourge and you can build such an infrastructure only once?!) One option would have been the Military Academy, but first of all, I did not know the tech for that (in this game I acquired the missing techs only 2-3 turns before the end of the game, when it certainly no longer pays off... I used all my cash for upgrading the enslaved Marauders to Warlords), and even if I had, it would probably not have been a good choice, because my experience in the Huns game was, that the game was over, before the Academy produced its first Army...
(Cash-rushing is not possible under our government.) So if I am really lucky, it might produce one Army on time, but certainly not two, so then it is better to simply convert the Leader into an Army right away.My infrastructure was mainly:
- three early granaries in the towns I used as worker pumps for some time
- barracks in all towns
- occasionally a temple, where I needed the culture expansion (as I said, I didn't want to bother with having to defend a second ring, so the first ring needed to get its required tiles via culture)
- a courthouse here and there, where it helped to produce Warlords 1-2 turns faster
- 2-3 aqueducts for the first ring cities which I was not able to found on a river
After the end of the GA, when commerce went down considerably and I was not able to keep all citizens happy with 50% lux, I built 3 Collossei in those cities that did not have enough commerce.
I hate floodplain starts. Even after playing non-food bonus starts, I still avoid them. Disease early comes as unpredictable. From what I recall even after swapping tiles, disease can happen in a turn after it started. Settle on a river on top of a floodplain? But that's less food than settling off of a river. So, when I settle near floodplains I deliberately settle off rivers, which feels awkward, since then I'll need an aqueduct there.
Bad position for early contacts... but fortunately that's less of an issue since trading contacts is quickly available in that scenario.
All that f-ing desert! Production there isn't all that great, in my opinion. The locations of Sumeria and Babylon, I think both come as better for maximum production, I think... though I do recall Sumeria having marsh nearby (game doesn't last long enough, I think, for the benefit of cleared marsh to offset the slowness of clearing it out).
I thought I remember someone else saying that Sumeria has the best position for building wonders, and when I played them, I remember they did seem to have a good location.
When I played Babylon, I think I had some wheat food bonuses and a good stack of hills for my capital.
If I recall correctly, Phoenicia's defense unit is a bit tougher than other defenders, or am I getting confused/assuming things because it resembles a numidian mercenary?
You had an uprising issue. I'm not sure that barbarian camps respawn in this scenario. They didn't seem to. All other tribes I think come as likely have AI help other than Egypt for taking care of that issue.
Fighting on multiple fronts could be more complicated, but it could mean more victory points also. Still, probably a slower city capture.
If you play as Sumeria, and fight Babylon, that sounds possibly better than fighting Phoenicia as Egypt... though Babylon has hills nearby.
If you play as Babylon, you would only need to keep Medes and Phoenicia off you're back I think.
I played as Mycanae once. It was only Monarch, but their neighbor seemed pretty far. It might be faster to just build wonders with them.
The Hittites might have a good position to attack Medes early, but I don't recall what their land is like. I haven't played either of them. I haven't played Phoneicia also. I've played all the others though.
I do seriously doubt that Egypt has the best position for a fast finish date. Or I just loathe floodplains a lot, I suppose.
need my speed
Rex Omnium Imperarium
Honestly, I think this one is the best one. You can block the AI from coming into your lands by putting a unit on Constantinople / the Bosporus / you know which tile I mean. And then you just build all the wonders in peace, and have a huge land to grow rich from (more roads is faster technologies, combined with more mines is double faster wonders), that you can also use to amass an army should you need it (but you won't). Quite easy.
They seem like the simplest to play in general. They have the best early defender, with a 2/4 hoplite. But, I do think that city captures has more potential for a quick finish. Also, the cost factor for higher levels means that wonders get more difficult to build. On Deity I think you mostly lose. On Sid I won't be surprised if you can't manage a single wonder with them. A cost factor of 4 is no joke.
Also, I just took a look at the Hittites starting location. I see a spot on a lake with three plains wheat, a plains cow, three hills, two forests, and a bonus grassland. That's the sort of spot that really has supreme production power, I think. Not sure how much exactly, but it's up there.
Sumeria and Babylon both have sites which are up there also.
Huh... the enkidu warrior is a 2/2 at 10 shields in this scenario. Bronze working is a few technologies in. Babylon can have 3/2 bowman, but they cost 20 shields. If an enkidu rush could work at high level against Babylon, there's still the question of such an attack stalling also, since the cities probably were of smaller size than for good victory points. I would guess that an extorted city still gives victory points.
You have no idea how much I'm laughing... I think I picked Deity. I felt sure that they didn't get free units in this scenario and now since a lone enkidu warrior (not even produced) appears to have captured a capital, it seems even more likely.
I can't say that this much aggression is tactically sound though, for sure.
Edit: Aw.. .there's a second warrior in there. Still early GA without any mines up!
Oh... barbarians are 2/2. No wonder my attacking them on hills failed twice.
I can't say that this much aggression is tactically sound though, for sure.
Edit: Aw.. .there's a second warrior in there. Still early GA without any mines up!
Oh... barbarians are 2/2. No wonder my attacking them on hills failed twice.
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Tried again, this time with more of a quick stack. Pure enkidu rush. No granaries, no barracks, no settlers, no extra workers. Babylon is so close to Sumeria. It's good that Babylon gets bowmen with warrior code. I was concerned about getting attacked by bowmen. But, they ended up fortified in cities, with warriors coming out to attack instead. It makes sense. Since bowman are their strongest defenders, the AI's logic keeps them in their cities as defense first, I guess.
Medes is north of Sumeria. I played a few more turns on Deity, and Medes still didn't have mining, which they need for bronze working. 4/4 health regular enkidus at 2/2 vs. warriors seems possible.
Medes is north of Sumeria. I played a few more turns on Deity, and Medes still didn't have mining, which they need for bronze working. 4/4 health regular enkidus at 2/2 vs. warriors seems possible.
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Fastest finish in the Conquests, and by-civilization... now that's a section of the Civ III HOF that doesn't exist but could have been quite interesting, especially if started back in the heyday of the game.
I did a Hittite Mesopotamia game in February, Emperor level. Their land is great, but the barbarians coming over the northern Anatolian mountains got annoying. I tried to expand out my cities quickly, which worked, but it wasn't until I had some roads across those mountains that my Three-Man-Chariots could cross that I really felt I had the local neighborhood under control. Only wound up fighting Macedon, and built 4 wonders, won when the last wonder was built. Probably would have had to play more aggressively on higher difficulties.
I was thinking last night, this thread could potentially spawn other Conquests attempts, and if we aren't careful we might have nine threads for nine different players trying the nine conquests. Not that that would be a bad thing...
I did a Hittite Mesopotamia game in February, Emperor level. Their land is great, but the barbarians coming over the northern Anatolian mountains got annoying. I tried to expand out my cities quickly, which worked, but it wasn't until I had some roads across those mountains that my Three-Man-Chariots could cross that I really felt I had the local neighborhood under control. Only wound up fighting Macedon, and built 4 wonders, won when the last wonder was built. Probably would have had to play more aggressively on higher difficulties.
I was thinking last night, this thread could potentially spawn other Conquests attempts, and if we aren't careful we might have nine threads for nine different players trying the nine conquests. Not that that would be a bad thing...
So the Enkidu rush works quite well, even on Deity. But the question is: is it really worth the despotic GA with only a few small and unimproved towns?
When I started this scenario, I was under the (false) impression that building a few wonders is the way to win this. (And I believed the Deity AI would start with their usual extra units, which apparently they don't!)
So I did not look for any early rush opportunities and rather thought, the Egyptian War Chariot (3-1-2) were the better UU. Comes a bit later for a well-timed GA and has the extra benefit that it upgrades to the Heavy Cavalry unit, the best offensive unit of the scenario.
(Also I don't mind floodplain starts, that's probably the playstyle/taste difference between us. With Egypt it matters even less, as Egypt is agricultural in this scenario! So desert is just as useful as plains here...)
Toxicman007
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I look forward to seeing you play Middle Ages, Lanzelot. Personally I find that one the most difficult, unless playing as Abbasids. Are you going to rule them out when choosing a civ? Even on Deity I assume it can be won by mass stacking Jerusalem for the VP.
To be honest: I have already looked at some of the choices and was planning on taking the Abbasids... Do you think that would be too easy?
They do control Jerusalem, but the starting land is not necessarily that great.
They do control Jerusalem, but the starting land is not necessarily that great.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
According to my Halls of Fame, I have won the Middle Ages at least twice on Emperor, as the Fatimids and the Danes; I have also lost as the Cordobans(? the Islamic Civ from southern Spain).
Byzantium might be interesting: relatively central/ surrounded, close enough to make inroads into the Holy Land if you chose to (or capture any Relics that might come your way...).
Byzantium might be interesting: relatively central/ surrounded, close enough to make inroads into the Holy Land if you chose to (or capture any Relics that might come your way...).
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Looking through the scenario editor, that's true of every conquest- in all 9 of them, the AI doesn't get any bonus starting units at higher difficulty levels.
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