[C3C] The Nine Conquests

[tjs282]

Some of the city improvements have changed significantly:
Codex (replacement for Library) is 100s (50 for scientific nations)
Temple 20s (so only 10 for religious nations!)
Courthouse 180s (90 for religious or expansionist)
Stela 60s (30 for religious or commercial)
Sacrificial Altar 40s (20 for religious or militaristic)
Ball Court 150s (75 for industrious or commercial)
Tambo 140s (70 for commercial or expansionist)
Fishing Dock (Harbor) 250s! (but only 125 for militaristic or commercial)
Marketplace 200s (100 for commercial) and requires a Tambo. The Marketplace also increases production by 25%, even though this is nowhere documented...
Aqueduct is unchanged compared to the base game
Hospital 300s (but only 150 for militaristic)

Are you saying that Comm, Ind and Exp buildings get trait-based discounts in this Scenario?!?

Because they don't in the base game, and I was under the (mistaken?) impression that was hardcoded in the .exe. But if there's some way of modding that in the .biq I'd be very happy...

 

[choxorn]

On Deity, the AI has lots of workers, which can be captured, and lots of units, which can be enslaved, so if I manage to get like 25 slaves back home, that would already be 1000 culture points. (Of course I will have a Sacrficial Altar there asap.)

It's not really all that important to have a Sacrificial Altar in your capital ASAP, just by the time you want to be sacrificing workers- when I did it I didn't bother sacrificing them at all until I had enough to get to 2,000 culture in my capital, because until I had that they were more useful building improvements.

 

[Lanzelot]

Because they don't in the base game, and I was under the (mistaken?) impression that was hardcoded in the .exe. But if there's some way of modding that in the .biq I'd be very happy...

I think it is the "Other Characteristics" in the Editor. If you check a trait for a wonder, it means "GA trigger", and if you check it for an improvement, it means "half price". (Doesn't seem to have any effect for the small wonders, though?!)

For example, the Marketplace in Mesoamerica has the "Commercial" flag set, which it doesn't in the base game. (Also note the prerequisite "Tambo", the "1" in "Production", which means +25% shield output, the +1 culture per turn and the increased "Cost" of 20...)

 

[Lanzelot]

It's not really all that important to have a Sacrificial Altar in your capital ASAP, just by the time you want to be sacrificing workers- when I did it I didn't bother sacrificing them at all until I had enough to get to 2,000 culture in my capital, because until I had that they were more useful building improvements.

I want to get it asap mainly for the extra culture: it's only 20s for a religious civ, and getting some early extra culture in my capital, before the AI does, cannot hurt!

 

[choxorn]

That's also true

 

[Lanzelot]

I had some time to start the game yesterday, and finished the writeup! I now experimented with "thumbnails" instead of putting the images into spoilers. Please let me know how that affects page load time. I will then later change all the other stories as well, to either spoilers or thumbnails.

 

[tjs282]

For example, the Marketplace in Mesoamerica has the "Commercial" flag set, which it doesn't in the base game.

But Marketplaces do have the Commercial flag in the base-game: that's how Smiths makes Markets maintenance-free (along with the other "Commercial"-flagged generic buildings, e.g. Harbours, Banks, etc.) — but Commercial Civs don't get their shield-costs halved for any of those buildings.

(And Factory shield-costs aren't halved for Industrious Civs, either! )

 

[Lanzelot]

Hmm, then I'm at my wit's end... We need to ask the expert modders... But perhaps in the C&C forum.
Edit: one way to test this, may be by unticking the religious box for the Temple and then checking, whether it now has the full 60s for a religious civ?!

 

[choxorn]

And then there is the strange tech of Blood Cult, enabling another government of the same name. Honestly, I have no idea, why the game designers added this?! Why would we want another anarchy that late in the game? And as far as I can see, Blood Cult is not even an improvement over Monarchy, but rather a major step back: it reintroduces the Despotism penalty, and it reintroduces pop-rushing instead of cash-rushing! All the other things, corruption level, MP maximum, draft rate and worker efficiency are the same. Only the free unit support has been increased from 2/4/8 to 8/8/8. But I rather pay a little more gold than put up with another anarchy and a mediocre government?! (If anyone knows, what the game designers had in mind with this, please enlighten me. Perhaps you can now also sacrifice your own workers instead of only slaves? But that would be too easy, almost an instant win, as you can certainly have some worker pumps running the entire game and then just wait for Blood Cult?!)

The civilopedia isn't even correctly describing how Blood Cult works- in the editor you see the other two big drawbacks of Blood Cult, that units cost 2gpt instead of 1 (if you somehow have more than 8 units per city) and it has low-level WW, and it also is wrong about what spy mission you're immune to (the civilopedia says you're immune to technology theft, the editor says you're immune to propaganda, but I don't think it actually matters much). You also see the one major benefit: city improvements don't cost any maintenance in Blood Cult.

All that said, yeah, I don't see how it's an improvement over Monarchy, one of many government types in the scenarios you'd never switch into (for that matter, the base game also has governments you'd probably never use). When I did this one you can see me research the pre-req for Blood Cult fairly early in the 2nd age, and then every time I research a tech for the rest of the game my science advisor suggests Blood Cult, which I always ignore and I go on to research every other tech in the scenario first before being part-way done with Blood Cult when I win.

The power graph doesn't look too bad for a Deity game, so it could be that the AI cannot handle all the rule changes that well? Before the game, I had really been afraid that this scenario would turn into a humiliating defeat, but now I get fresh hope.

Looking at the scenario in the editor, it looks like the Aztecs/Inca/Maya all start with an established size 3 capital + a settler/worker/warrior, while the Moche/Olmecs/Toltecs get no city to start and just the settler/warrior/worker, leaving them well behind the three human-playable civs to start off.

 

[tjs282]

Hmm, then I'm at my wit's end... We need to ask the expert modders... But perhaps in the C&C forum.
Edit: one way to test this, may be by unticking the religious box for the Temple and then checking, whether it now has the full 60s for a religious civ?!

While I wouldn't claim to be an expert modder on the level of e.g. @Civinator or @Vuldacon, AFAIKnew, only the Civ-traits Rel, Sci, Mil, Sea and Agri were/are hardcoded to give shield-discounts on buildings — so in your suggested test, yes, unticking "Religious" for the Temple would make it cost the full 60 shields for Religious Civs.

But that's why I was surprised by your contentions (assumptions?) in the strategy-post that the Ind-, Comm-, and Exp-flagged buildings also got discounts in this Scenario — because if true, that would strongly imply that there was a "Trait gives shield-discount? Yes/No" switch buried somewhere in the .biq, that I've been overlooking for years.

 

[Toxicman007]

I love the Mesoamerica conquest, probably the one I have played the most. I look forward to seeing the Deity strategies, although to be honest I am a bit disappointed that you are going with the Aztecs and not my beloved Maya

 

[Lanzelot]

AFAIKnew, only the Civ-traits Rel, Sci, Mil, Sea and Agri were/are hardcoded to give shield-discounts on buildings

Hmm, it's hard to find out, because: none of the 6 civs in Mesoamerica are actually commercial... Ah, wait, I found a way to test this: I started a game as the Incas, who are expansionist and agricultural. So per my theory, they should get a discount on the Courthouse:

But in fact they pay the full 180 shields... (Only when playing as the Aztecs (religious), I pay 90s.)

So looks like you are correct, it must be hardcoded. I'll correct my strategy discussion above.

although to be honest I am a bit disappointed that you are going with the Aztecs and not my beloved Maya

The Mayas were too boxed in for my taste, at least for a Deity game. Not much space, no nearby luxuries (second ring at best, so could easily get lost to the Olmecs or Toltecs on Deity), not much food. The Aztecs just have the best start land: food and a lux resource for the capital, more food and two luxes in first ring distance, and a fourth lux in second ring distance. For a Deity game, I didn't want to take any chances... And I think it payed of: so far I was able to keep the AI's pace, tech-wise as well as in terms of expansion&population. Only my military is weak compared to everybody. But I'll be working on that soon...

 

[Quintillus]

Nice peaceful start! I am glad you didn't wind up in a war early yet again! Even going for building a Wonder on Diety... that's a bold strategy, let's see if it pays off.

I wonder if the Inca are going to start capturing and sacrificing slaves with their war with the Moche, and if so if that will noticeably boost their culture? It's a bit surprising the Moche didn't sacrifice their Incan slaves.

If I put on my Aztec hat, I can see the "culture from ripping the heart out of your captured enemies" aspect. It's currying favor with the gods! Putting fear in the still-beating hearts of your still-living enemies! Of course if I'm just wearing my modern average human hat, such customs seem rather un-cultured... but if I grew up in Tenochtitlan in the mid 1400s, I might think such customs were appropriate. Just as if I grew up in Europe in the 1720s, I might consider it perfectly normal to go watch the local public execution on a Saturday afternoon.

On the note of in-action screenshots, the only program I've found that works well for that is ImageShack QuickShot. It's been deprecated for years and can only be found on third-party sites, but it works whereas the good old print screen doesn't for some reason. There are probably other options that work, too, but I don't know what they are... so whenever I post an "in the action" screenshot, that's what I used to capture it.

 

[Lanzelot]

After playing some more today, I even think that this game can be won completely peacefully! (However, it's going take quite a bit longer, as I wouldn't be able to kick off the GA. But I think I could build a third wonder, 4 more cultural buildings and a small wonder, and also buy a couple more slaves via F4, whenever one is on offer, and that way reach 2K before turn 175?!)

I wonder if the Inca are going to start capturing and sacrificing slaves with their war with the Moche, and if so if that will noticeably boost their culture?

That may even be. As I just wrote in part 3, the Mayas (Chichén Itza) had always been a handful of points ahead of Tenochtitlan, and then at one point, when I built the Temple of the Moon and must therefore have overtaken the Mayas, I noticed in F8, that Cuzco had jumped ahead of both Tenochtitlan and Chichén Itza, by a bit more than 20 points. The only explanation I have for that, is that they sacrificed a slave in the capital?!

Hmm, no, I just loaded an old save, established an embassy and noticed that they had already built stuff that Tenochtitlan didn't have: a Codex and a Ball Court. So they were doing 10cpt at a time, when Chichén Itza and Tenochtitlan were still doing 6cpt, and therefore gained their lead the "normal" way, I only didn't check F8 often enough to notice...

 

[Lanzelot]

Managed to write two more updates today, part 4 & 5, Mesoamerica is finished as well!

 

[Quintillus]

Well done on that Mesoamerica finish! The Maya may have prevented an attempt from winning peacefully, even if you hadn't decided to fight the Olmecs, but it added some nice dramatic effect to the story. Sneaky of them, sending just one Javelin Thrower back towards their homeland like that.

 

[Toxicman007]

Great ending to Mesoamerica, fantastic Warrior defense! I was 100% sure you were going to lose that city. Have you decided on a nation for Age of Discovery? I assume the New World civilizations are out of the question on Deity

 

[Ozymandias]

Besides the C3C epic game, I made a German translation of the Conquests and a massive graphical improvement by using the specific Civ 3 units and graphics for leaders, buildings and so on and by correcting the partly historical nonsense in the Firaxis texts. The settings of the Conquests were not changed (with the one exception, that in the WW 2 in the Pacific Conquest B-29 bombers are not allowed to start from aircraft carriers) and all can be run with the English Civ 3 Complete.

I especially like the new look of the Sengoku Conquest with the buildings of ShiroKobbure. Even for civers who are not understanding the German language, it can be interesting to have a look at the pictures of the used units, leaderheads and buildings of those graphically improved conquests. You can find them here and in the following posts.

I'm only seeing download links for the Napoleonic

 

[Lanzelot]

My main failure (as always!) was that I would tend to build up and cross the Channel too cautiously/ too late. Also, because of the Celts' starting position, it often takes a long time to contact the eastern Barbarian-Civs, so I usually also forgot to get anyone to fight extended campaigns against Eastern Rome, so they would usually win on VPs.

The main problem with this Scenario is that the Civ3-AI tries to play as if it was a normal epic-game: the large amount of colonisable space tempts them into racing to fill up the map with Cxx(x)xC'd towns, which, combined with the large swathes of Hills and Forests (and their perennial disinclination to build enough Workers!), means that they aren't able to grow/defend a lot of those towns effectively, leaving them very vulnerable to the city-elimination mechanic, which they don't "understand".

Arguably, all you have to do to beat half of them is to station stacks of 2-3 (fast) units around your borders to watch out for passing AI Settler-pairs, follow them until they found a town, and then (declare war and) capture it...
AFAIK, losing towns to flips doesn't count towards the elimination-limit, only losing them to conquest does

While reading this again, a thought suddenly struck me for an exploit that might work well (or at least could be used to solve your problem with East Rome):

1. Get 8 crap towns ready somewhere
2. Position a unit next to each town
3. Gift those 8 towns to East Rome (will of course work the same with West Rome, or any other nation, but I assume we want to take out at least one enemy the "real" way...)
4. Declare war and re-capture these 8 towns. ---> Poof, superpower eliminated instantly...

This of course assumes that gifted towns don't count towards your own elimination-limit. But if flipped towns don't count, then gifted towns will probably neither. This can easily be tested.
If this works, it is of course a very very cheap exploit for instant victory... All you need is a little space where you can found 8 towns, and contact to East and West Rome, so you can gift them those towns...

Edit: ok, scrap that... I just tested: towns are not tradable / giftable in the Fall of Rome scenario...
(And of course I forgot choxorn's test which confirmed that flipped towns indeed do count for the elimination-limit... )

 

[choxorn]

I wouldn't be surprised if gifted towns count towards elimination anyway if you could trade them