The Official Civ4 Ideas Thread

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I think that the AI should be expanded to a point that truly resembles interaction between nations. I want to be able to attack units that have been within my borders for a long time, without declaring war on the AI. I want the AI to not simply trudge through my territory just because there's a tiny bit of land I haven't yet colonized, to my north. I want to be able to "claim" borders beyond a cultural influence; (Much like parts of the "New World" were claimed by various explorers for their nations.)

There's so much more I could say, but I'm sure most of it has already been said... I am just wanting to sum up my desire for a more developed AI, and a more realistic way to interact with other nations.
 
Good call Templar. It annoys me immencely when 2 cities side by side are both poducing odd food with max popoulation and keep starving and repopulating! Just share some food and no more starving citizens! Either that or allow terraforming (as per CivII).
 
well, A4phantom, police have been next to useless in my games. I would rather have another farmer and make the city grow so I can at least get some unit support. It converts one wasted shield into production, and one corruption into commerce.
 
Sorry if something like this has been posted. I havn't read all 54 pages.

I would like there to be some expanded espionage. One I would really like is an assination. Not one on Cleopatra of the Egytions, but lets say someone high in their government. Then this would create anarchy in that country for a couple of turns. This sort of espionage would be the perfect forerunner to an epic war.
Also in Civ2 you could plant nuclear bombs and posion a city's water supply. I think that would be cool for Civ4.
I dont know if this idea is good, but mabye you could buy off another civ's spy and use him as a double agent (for much easier espionage). This could be too complicated though.
 
I've been reading alot of these ideas and I think some of them are awesome. I have an idea for a new resource system. What if all the refined resources in civ 3 (ie Wines, Silks, Iron etc) had to be taken from their raw form (ie grapes, silk farm/silk worms, raw iron etc) and converted to something useful. This could be done at different city improvments like a vineyard for wine, silkfarm for silk, smelter for iron and the only way you could take advantage of these refined resources is to have control of the raw form and convert it at the city square. To go even further into this, maybe you could only produce X amount of the resource every turn, and to produce more per turn you would need to research certain technologies on an entirely different tech tree which would be a sort of "Productivity Tech Tree" where you could research techs to have faster workers, Citizens that "work" squares more efficiently making the squares worth more shields/food/commerce, and maybe something like researching different building materials. Say you researched Steel, then that could open up new city improvements OR make some of your current improvements cost less shields. I was also thinking of a "military tech tree" where you could research techs that would improve units attack/defense/speed and so on. I think this would make the game way more realistic since most nations in our world make their military stand out, ie some nations emphasize stealth over strength and visa versa. This would also help in the sense that the guerilla in civ 3 is so weak. Most nations armies are based on guerrila warfare, but that doesn't mean that if a regiment of tanks and a group of guerillas fought each other that the guerillas would have just as good as a chance as the tanks do, they might even have a better chance considering the terrain and whether or not they are fighting on their native soil. I think those features should be implemented in the game. And what about a religious slider? I was thinking something like a pentagram with a different religion at each corner, and you can move a slider around the middle of the pentagram closer or more far away from each religion. This could change national corruption, military efficiency, military unit costs and so on. This feature could also be done for governments, say for a triangle you could have communism, fascism, and capitalism at each corner. This would be an interesting feature since it wouldn't force you to take an affirmative stance on government or religion. It would allow your nation to "sit on the fence" as they say. Another idea for governments would be that some governments are more aggressive to others. For example, lets say you had a fascist Al and you are a democracy. It should be harder for you to trade with the fascist Al. If you were also fascist, the Al should be more lenient when trading. Well, those are my ideas. Give some feedback if you wish.
 
Originally posted by Do_Sa_Nim
well, A4phantom, police have been next to useless in my games. I would rather have another farmer and make the city grow so I can at least get some unit support. It converts one wasted shield into production, and one corruption into commerce.

Thanks, that is indeed pretty useless. Can that be altered (say doubled) in the editor? Also, does anyone see a problem with code of laws enabling policemen instead of nationalism? I know that's about an era and a half but it makes historical and logical sense and i don't see how it would unbalance the game in any way (especially since they appear to be pretty ineffective). It would also be nice to have a tool for controlling waste and corruption early on, and when one extra shield is significantly more meaningful because defensive units cost 20 shields instead of 90 or so.
 
Originally posted by Zandrew
Don't know if anyone's suggested a "Political Great Leader" that could help you move from one government to another with NO anarchy. Or: use him to force a civ you're at war with to accept peace terms. Perhaps a 1 in 10 chance to get a PGL if you're the first to learn a new government type. Or: add these abilities to the MGL.
How about a UGL: "Unique Great Leader" who could appear just once per game and do anything the other kinds of leaders do.

I did, here:

link

other ways to use this Political Great Leader could be to reduce corruption in the city where the leader is present (or for 20 turns if the leader is consumed), or by the city getting +1 on food/shield/commerce on each worked tile.

There is a lot of potential for a leader unit like that.
 
Wow - 55 pages and still counting. A 'brief' summary listing the suggestions raised would be nice (it would still be a very very long document, but at least I would be to see if some of what I'm going to suggest has already been raised)

My suggestions are largely toward finding a non-OCN method of curbing ICS - however I believe they are interesting real-world mechanics in themselves.

1) The Economics of Success (idea from a recent thread discussing OCN)
Given that in Free market Economies at least , from what I understand (and I am by no means educated in any of the mechanics of economics so I trust any economists out there will correct me), the potential of unlimited growth is a requirement to the succesful running of that economy, hence the regular bulletins 'the Economy has grown 10 points!', hand in hand with this growth grows the expectations of a nation for living standards to increase.

At the moment a city of 20 citizens requires X quantity of luxuries (not resource luxuries you understand, the actual spend of commerce) - regardless of the cities/nations income. This means that while the nation is poor (experiencing poor growth or even a slump) the city requires a large percentage of its income to keep them happy. However, if for some reason the nation experiences unprecedented ecenomic growth and wealth, the citizens still require the same quantity X of luxuries to keep them happy - which may in relative terms mean everyone is given a free loaf of bread by the state when the state could in fact afford to put Gold plating on each and every citizens motor cars and have change left over.

Obviously this could hardly happen irl - the leader would be out on his backside toot-sweet. Addressing this inequity in Civ can perhaps be seen as a pretty sure-fire way to help curb the extreme power large economies a non-OCN model would experience?

This principle need not only apply to democracies/republics - look what happened to the French aristocracy when they got too greedy, and the shockwaves it sent round Europe afterwards

One mechanic could simply be raising the number of 'commerce coins' required to change the mood of a citizen according to the economic success a nation is experiencing. Of necessity the amount of happiness generated by luxury resources would have to be muted somewhat (I personally believe this should happen anyway, most of the time my Empire runs on a 0% luxury rate after I have trade contact with all required nations - this doesn't feel right to me). This 'raising the luxury bar' is already experienced in war-time, but there is no significant penalty for rampant peacetime economic success.

2) Resistors, the Black Market and Terrorism, towards making aggressive ICS harder
First of all a disclaimer - recent years means that trying to discuss this topic is naturally going to be highly contentious, I shall be making all attempts to avoid offending anyones sensitivities, however merely discussing this issue in the context of a game some may find offensive.

Resistance and Resistors. At the moment a resistor is a barely perceptible nuisance to the occupying state, which can quickly be resolved by dumping a load of military units on their doorstep. From my point of view this is absurd - irl this approach can be seen throughout history to merely generate more sympathy towards the resistors cause, and imo doing so should actually give you more resistors, not less. I for one should my relatively peaceful corner of the world be overrun would be more disposed to a resistors point of view if all I saw were my occupiers tanks/soldiers marching up and down every day.

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. This is a well known truism - not of my creation. A penalty for having a large number of resistors should be a percentage chance for each resistor (accumulating with each other) of a 'terrorist' act being committed. The destruction of one of the cities ameneties (banks, libraries, marketplaces) would reflect this, and would be very irritating at least - perhaps even the loss of some citizens. An even smaller chance could be used to reflect that resistors do not necessarily restrict their operations to their home town and frequently take their cause to the occupiers home towns.

As for the Black Market - terrorism/resistance is known to operate (by necessity) on the Black Market. This could be reflected simply by resistors not only having no contribution to the cities pot of commerce and production, but actually heavily increasing the corruption of their town.

Having resistors that do all this will naturally make aggressive ICS more difficult - but not if you can still dump 20 Cavalry in their town and they suddenly become happy campers. Military police has a role - to help prevent the violent/civil disobedient acts of said resistors (a simple overall reduction in percentage chance of terrorist acts in that town per unit) - but more is less in the long run, as I have stated irl you merely generate ever increasing sympathy for the resistance by doing this - and the heavier handed you are, the number of resistors should increase (a simple percentage chance accumulating per military unit of generating a new resistor per turn).

How resistors should ever become 'assimilated' I've not got any really good answers for (perhaps because it is something that Governments/occupiers still have trouble with today), although *very* long periods of (relatively) peaceful occupation seems to have worked (I don't believe my own kin ever managed to forcibly eject the Romans, or the Normans).

3) It's not only terrorists that use the Black Market
Simply put - unhappy people, whether they are balanced by happies or not - should increase corruption. This is towards my goal of finding a better alternative to OCN for a corruption model. Frankly this idea makes complete sense irl terms to me, and would naturally make large empires who's base corruption (without OCN) relies on distance, more corrupt. The further from the capitol, the more corruption is experienced, the less happy people are, therefore feeding back into more corruption. As long as the excessive (to my view) simplicity of keeping your population happy by trading for all the 'resource luxuries' is reduced, this should present an interesting cycle of corruption in outlying towns that is hard to break.

4) Corruption leads to break-away nations (Independance etc.)
One of the most fun, but frankly unbalanced and not quite real-life (for me) parts of Civ1/2 was that taking an enemies capitol could split a nation in two. Additionally many people want to know where the role from real-life of nations forming from colonies (most noteably all of the Americas) could be squeezed into Civ.

I am pretty sure this idea has been posited before, and it's simply that corruption should feed into a pot generating sympathy for rebellion/independance amongst groups of the more outlying towns and cities. This, I think, is probably one of the most hard-to-implement ideas as it involves a more heuristic approach than any other of the suggestions I have made, from a programmatic point of view, as all the others are pretty much 'new lever' ideas. The pot is simple enough, but how do you define a group of cities that are likely to break away? This is preferable to single city break aways, as although one city would be very irritating it wouldn't be hard to capture (although there would be all the problems of resistor sentiment, much worse if the earlier idea is used). Multiple cities independance would be a catastrophic event to any empire, and goes a long way to helping reduce the need for OCN being used to limit ICS.


5) Use the Diminishing Returns Principal of Commerce division from Alpha Centauri
I loved this principal, it was a non-arbitrary mechanic that made sense in its own context. Basically it meant that assigning 100% science (or tax, or luxuries) didnt mean you got 100% of the non-corrupt commerce being thrown on the pot - a mechanic that reflects the fact throwing an ever increasing quantity of money at a problem is not necessarily going to help in direct proportion to the quantitative increase. Made buckets of sense, was appropriate in a real-life context. There was quite a lot of other stuff from SMAC I loved too as a side note, e.g. I would love to see the more complex socio-economic model being brought into Civ somehow.



Well, I've rambled on for quite some time it seems. Like most people I have a desire to see Civ reflect more and more real life problems/aspects, through playing the game we find some tiny insights into why and how things around us are as they are. Some may say the suggestions may be adding too much complexity for other peoples liking, but I have yet to hear anyone crying out for Civ to be made simpler for themselves.

edit: some formatting corrections
 
Also, does anyone see a problem with code of laws enabling policemen instead of nationalism? I know that's about an era and a half but it makes historical and logical sense

Sorry but it doesn't make historical sense - until pretty much into the 19th century (1800 and something) Civil obedience was a side-role of the military institutions.
 
One especially unrealistic feature of Civ3 is that civilizations either keep getting bigger and bigger, over hundreds if not thousands of years, or get smaller and smaller until finally being wiped out.

Historically, the complete wipeout of civilizations happens, but is quite rare. And the phenomenon of ever-expanding civilizations is rarer still. Rome started as a city, became a vast empire, crumbled, and re-emerged (in a sense) with modern Italy. England started as a collection of small kingdoms, conquered Wales and parts of France, lost its French possessions, expanded into parts of Ireland, gained Scotland, expanded massively throughout the world, then contracted even more spectacularly into modern Britain--a country which, while not as powerful as it was in 1850, remains a very significant country.

Civ3 simply can't handle these kinds of developments. If you were playing England in Civ3, you might expand and contract by small margins a bit at first, then burst into a massive empire. But if you then lost that empire, your civilization would be counted as a complete failure by the game's end--even though, as I say, the UK remains an important world power and a major diplomatic and cultural force.

I have mentioned in earlier posts the need for some mechanism to take account of colonisation and decolonisation. Similarly, the discovery of Nationalism should have a much greater effect in Civ4. In Civ3, all it really does is enable Riflemen. In reality, nationalist sentiments undid the British, Austro-Hungarian, French, Ottoman and other empires. When Nationalism is discovered in Civ4, culturally weak civs or ethnically diverse civs should feel the strain. They should even, in some cases, lose territories to newly-emerging nations. Most importantly, the effect of such losses on the civ's score and chances of winning the game should not necessarily be negative. It should depend on how the civ diplomatically manages the emergence of new nations. Returning to the UK example, the Commonwealth (ie its former colonial possessions) is, on balance, a great asset for Britain today. Commonwealth countries tend to be friendly with the UK (with some exceptions) and receptive to UK cultural exports.
 
In Civ3, all trade is controlled by diplomatic relations between leaders. Spontaneous trade between peoples apparently does not occur. I doubt whether this was ever the case, historically speaking, but it certainly is not the case in the modern era.

Trading resources between civs is a really fun element in Civ3, and I don't want to throw it out entirely simply for the sake of historical accuracy. But it is a truly bizarre spectacle to have Abraham Lincoln approaching Queen Elizabeth in 1956 asking whether she would like to trade furs. Especially when both governments are Democratic (given the capitalist overtones of Democracy in Civ3).

It seems to me that leaders (at least in monarchies and later forms of govt) should instead negotiate trade agreements with other civs. Simple agreements would simply lower or remove prohibitive tariffs, thus enabling access to the foreign market in respect of particular goods. More advanced trade deals could lower or remove tariffs across the board (free trade pacts) or provide incentives and protections for foreign investors (bilateral investment treaties).

It may be desirable to exclude Strategic Resources from these agreements. Indeed, for Strategic Resources my objection to leader-based trade diminishes. States have a clear interest in controlling trade in oil, uranium, etc. To have Lincoln and Elizabeth haggling over such resources is quite reasonable.
 
Civmad:

Perhaps Nationalism should increase the chance of what I outlined in Point 4 of my post (2 above yours) occuring :D

You're right ofc about the fact that Civ cannot hope at the moment to realistically reflect all aspects of the massively intricate dance of world politics throughout the ages, however having seen it's it's evolution from humble beginnings back in 1990 I truly hope that through the work of all Civfanatics since its inception my (not yet existant) grandchildren will have the opportunity to direct a nations history under their command in a manner which will blow all our current minds away!
 
Originally posted by Drakken
I'm not sure if it has been suggested or not. I believe the singlemost important change would be to make a hex based mapping system. this silly checkerboard with diagonal moves makes me crazy. It is time for Civ to become a real wargame with a more realistic mapping and movement system.

Hexes are nice, continous is better... but Civ isn't meant to be a wargame. The war should be just a part of it... as important as any other part. The player should be able to choose which part will be the more valuable to his/her empire.

Also, please stop trying to make Civ 'more realistic'. Games aren't meant to be such thing as 'realistic', they are meant to be 'fun'.
Of course, when you have a 'simulation' game like Civ (which is an empire-building simulator) you want it to model the reality the more accuratedly possible. So in turn you want it to be 'deeper modelled' rather than 'more realistic'.
Some may think that is a matter of semantics, but i think it's a matter of right-use of the language.

Sorry, again... I hope the moderators don't take any actions on me

Keep civilized

David
 
Various people looking for more complex resource/shield/commerce development models

Mmmmm Colonization had a lovely set up for the various elements extracted in raw form from the land, manufactured in to goods and distributed/sold. Track it down if you have never played it (theres a windows friendly version on various abandonware sites, I don't think you can still buy it).

I'm very much in agreement that something along those lines should be introduced/developed anyway - the strategic/luxury resources introduced in Civ3 looks as if the developers are sniffing in that direction too.
 
Originally posted by Drakken

I'm not sure if it has been suggested or not. I believe the singlemost important change would be to make a hex based mapping system. this silly checkerboard with diagonal moves makes me crazy. It is time for Civ to become a real wargame with a more realistic mapping and movement system.

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I'd rather not see a change to hexes. Yes, I understand that being able to move diagonally bothers some people since you can move much further (by a factor of 1.4, roughly) if you go corner-to-corner rather than face-to-face. But hexes have their problems. For one thing, there's only 6 possibly directions you can move in rather than 8. For another, I like the fact that squares (or diamonds) let you use the cardinal directions: N, S, E, W, and NE, SE, NW, SW. You lose this with hexes. And having those as the possible moves works very nicely with the numeric keypad on keyboards, while having six moves would require something a little less intuitive.

If hexes were arranged so that E and W were aligned with faces of the hexes, then to go straight N or S, you'd have to zig-zag, which to me would be even more annoying than the diagonal moves with the current system. What's more, the NW, NE, SW, and SE faces of the hexes wouldn't really be directly in those directions, since each face of a hex is 60 degrees different (instead of 90 for a square, or 45 counting diagonals). So if one face was due W, the next face clockwise wouldn't be straight NW, it would be somewhere between NW and N, and the next would be between N and NE, with, as I said, no way to go straight N.

I've played plenty of wargames (and RPGs) where hexes were used, and I think they're great for local maps, where movement relative to other units is most important and it doesn't really matter which way north is. But for the world-spanning map of Civ, I'd rather have N, S, E, and W be clear. Civ isn't strictly a wargame: battles are stategic, not tactical.

Any movement system with discrete locations (as opposed to a continuous map with no hexes OR squares) is going to have its limitations. I'm not blindly opposed to hexes, I just think its kind of silly how much some people think that a square-based movement system is the worst part of Civ. I think it's served the game well for three different releases, and while switching in the 4th to hexes instead might improve a few aspects, I think it would detract just as much as it helped. I say that Civ 4 should either do away with tiles altogether and go continous, or, better yet, stick with the simple, intuitive,perfectly adequate system that's currently used. For what it's worth, my wife liked Civ 1's system best, where the squares were arranged so that N,S,E,and W were staright and NE, SE, etc were diagonal. She complained that the Civ 2/3 system, with N,S, etc being the diagonals, made it harder to see where you were going without actaully changing the mechanics at all. She's what I'd call a casual player, and I just bring her opinion up to point out that what appeals to a casual player can be very different from what appeals to a hardcore gamer. Personally I like Civ 3 the best so far, but Civ 1 had a much broader appeal, and I hope Civ 4 doesn't keep moving in a direction catering to serious gamers only and ignoring the casual player.
 
I say that Civ 4 should either do away with tiles altogether and go continous, or, better yet, stick with the simple, intuitive,perfectly adequate system that's currently used.

Couldn't agree more. My personal preference would be to see Civ do away with tiles altoegether, however that raises real headaches for implementation programmatically speaking, and doubtless without significant investment in development would open up the door to god knows how many exploits. In the meantime square/diamond tiles is really the only order of the day that can be practically handled.
 
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