The Official Perfection KOs Creationism Thread!

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Smidlee said:
The problem with this statement is it contradicted the very language that you use. There many contradictions like this in the English language since human knowledge is limited. noone with common sense should have a problem understanding what is it meant when someone says "God can do anything." Even if you remove "God" in your statement is still is a self contradicting statement.

uh, smidlee, contradictions in the ENGLISH language (i.e. NOT in hebrew or latin) or contradictions in MANKINDs understanding of language?

What you say is nothing but an attempt to blow smoke as it stands (a sophistacted one, to be sure) - would you mind clarifiying?

And, for your 'common sense': that is one of the most favored arguments of people who run out of exact definitions (which, accidently, allow one to pin down a meaning).

'heck, if you do not understand me, you lack common sense!!!!!!!!!' - what a nice way of shoving someone out of a discussion! Sadly, you are playing to the audience here - and scientists care little about it, but rather about the content of the message - which basically is 'I can't score a point on the issue so I claim you don't know meadowmuffins, while I myself can't even say what meadowmuffins is'

I am not meaning to insult you or anything, I just want to get a clear statement form you:
what is meant by 'God can do anything' exactly?
 
God goes to the doctor and says "Doc, when I was younger, I used to be able to make a rock so big that I couldn't lift it. But these days, no matter how big a rock I make, I lift it with no trouble. So my question is - have I gotten more omnipotent, or less?"
-- Douglas Hofstaedter

Actually, theologians have defined pretty precisely what they mean with the statement "God can do anything", and they sometimes even agree with one another.

This, however, has next to nothing to do with creationims or evolutionary theory. If the best argument the creationists can muster is that we cannot disprove God's existence (it's not like I've tried), we're fully justified in laughing in their faces, and sitting back till a new challenger comes around.
 
I believe the point here was to debate the relative scientific merits of evolution and creationism. The last couple pages have mainly involved creationists flagrantly admitting that God's existance cannot be disproved. If God's existance cannot be disproved, then any claim involving the existance of God is inherently non-scientific, since the scientific method revolves around testable hypotheses.
Therefore, since creationism is not scientific by its very nature, the only path remaining for creationists wishing to stay on topic is to prove that evolution is not scientific either, and force a draw. Earlier in the thread there were some interesting attempts at this by creationists which resulted in some good debate. Since these attempts seem to have ceased, can we agree that Perfection has KO'd creationism at cfc as a scientifically valid theory?
 
CrazyScientist said:
Since these attempts seem to have ceased, can we agree that Perfection has KO'd creationism at cfc as a scientifically valid theory?
I think we can
 
I'm done with this thread
 
[dance][dance][dance][dance]

Now all I have to do is convince you that evolution is scientific and my work here is done (well, my work here with you is done)!
 
Convincing me that an untestable theory is scientific is going to require a lobotomy and a whole lotta drugs.
 
You keep alleging that evolution is untestable, however it is testible, numerous predictions have been made and subsequently verified when data has been collected. You're making the common mistake that scientific evidence must be some controlled lab expiriment. This is unture, expecially with mostly historical sciences such as archeaology, and cosmolgy.
 
FL2 said:
Creationism is not, and never has been, a scientific theory. It can't be one either. Had I known you were out to debunk it as a scientific theory, I wouldn't have bothered posting. Not only do you win this one, I'm on your side.
Wow. Y'know, it's sometimes helpful to read the opening post of a thread before posting. :cool:
 
I'm done with this thread
 
FearlessLeader2 said:
Wow, talk about great timing for giving the ole FearlessLeader2 a 3-day ban...

Yes, I'm back from my first and hopefully last three-day vacation, and I see that I was missed by my opponents. I could not ask for a better tribute than that.

Still, y'all seem to have talked this thing to death, and, in the re-iteration of the thread's 'rules', I saw something that I missed earlier. The deck has been stacked, the dice have been loaded.

Creationism is not, and never has been, a scientific theory. It can't be one either. Had I known you were out to debunk it as a scientific theory, I wouldn't have bothered posting. Not only do you win this one, I'm on your side.

However, I would like to point out that Creationism has not been KO'ed. What has been KO'ed is the idea that Crationism is scientific. If anyone said it was, then they're wrong, and I'll hold their arms while you slug 'em in the guts.

(Mind you, it is TRUE, but the only proof I'll ever be able to offer for that assertion is not available yet, and when it comes, I won't need to point it out to you.)


:( about your 'vacation' - had I known I wouldn't have hassled you. Sorry

:D about your opinion on creationism! You just restored my faith in your mental sanity :thumbsup:

Doubting evolution is fine, claimin creationism is scientific is crazy. I rpefer people who are hard to convince to gullible ones, so now I'll just have to try harder ;)
 
I'm done with this thread
 
FearlessLeader2 said:
Well, just don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. You didn't win anything, and I'm still right, and you're still misled. It's just a different set of details we're fussing over now.

nope.

will you give me a few mins to post? ;)
 
Take another three days if you think it will help.
 
Well, I have to go, work to do. I'll read it tomorrow...
 
FearlessLeader2 said:
Archaeology is not a science. It is the study of the remnants of the past. At best it is a semi-science of librarianism, of cataloguing and verifying artifacts as belonging to certain cultures. Cosmology, OTOH, is real science. The astophysicists who predicted a 3 kelvin background radiation in the 60s proved that.And you are making the far more common 'mistake' of believing that a useless 'prediction' that is subsequently 'proved' by 'new data' is a valid falsification attempt.
You appear to have a very weird definition of science.....

If you've got a string of fossils that show a progression from proto-cat A to proto-cat Z, but proto-cats G, M, and T are not in the progression, predicting that someone will find them is not predicting anything more significant than predicting that I will get wet if I forget my umbrella on a rainy day.
ahem, now you say if we have a dog-like animal that shares a few plesiomorph characters with whales, lacks mayn whale autapomorphois, but shares some whale autapomorphies (i.e. I claim it is a whale ancestor) and we have whales, then it is not surprising to find in intermediate forms?

did I get that right?

Where, pray tell, is the link from fish to amphibian? From amphibian to reptile? From reptile to mammal? You've got some feathered dinos that help you a little with the reptile to bird progression, but even that is pretty thin.

first: Not fish - 'fish'. Not reptile - 'reptile'. All not monophyletic clades, except for the mammals........

'fish' to 'amphib': in the Sarcopterygii! To be more specific: in the Dipnoi! On to Ichtyostega, oh, heck, check this:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/amphibians.jpg
(caution, large image!)
sorry it is in German, it is from the book quoted below. It lists all the groups and their relations as far as can be properly determined. It is a bit old, so expect slight changes due to new finds.


'amphib' to 'reptile': this is a tough one, I admit! To quote Carroll, R. (1993): Paläontologie und Evolution der Wirbeltiere. (translation of a standard book from the English; I re-translate freely here):

Before the Upper Carboniferous (Pennsylvanian) no sediments are known containing a real terrestrial fauna., and there are no earlier proofs of reptiles or their ancestors. The early amniotes are so different from all paleozoic amphibs that their exact descendence can't be pinned down.

a problem of preservation as you see.

from 'reptile' to mammal: this one is the mother load :D I am tempted just to refer you to Kemp, T. (1982): Mammal-like reptiles and the Origin of Mammals. - Academic Press, London.
But here’s a tiny bit of info for you – just a very quick glance…..
mammals1.jpg

so far for the ‘not-yet-mammals’
and on to the first mammals: a pic of the skeleton and a life-reconstruction of a morgonucodontid.
mammals2.jpg

mammals3.jpg

Very close to the first mammals. Looks kinda rodent-like, doesn’t it?

Well, not to me, but to the untrained guy off the street ;)


For the record, BTW, devolution is going backwards up the tree. Where is the regression from complexified(man for example) to simple(australiopithecus, or some common ancestor of both if aussie's not one of them)? Why doesn't the simpler version ever get chosen by the blind watchmaker?

hu? what is that supposed to mean?

devolution……….. how can anything go exactly back? What nonsense is this?

and, the term ‘primitive’ does NOT necessarily mean ‘less sophisticated’ or ‘less complex’. Rather, it means ancestral.

As for simpler: if a more complex form kicks out a simpler one, then the complex one oviosuly had an advantage. But lotsa ‘primitive’ crocodiles run around today, while some ‘highly sophisticated’ forms of crocodiles from the Mesozoic are gone.
 
FL2 said:
Archaeology is not a science. It is the study of the remnants of the past. At best it is a semi-science of librarianism, of cataloguing and verifying artifacts as belonging to certain cultures. Cosmology, OTOH, is real science. The astophysicists who predicted a 3 kelvin background radiation in the 60s proved that.
For the record, they predicted there would be a cosmic background. They did not predict the radiation temperature.
 
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