The outdated stack of doom

[alex sword]

SO I have a few questions about this
1) Has anyone ever seen a 70 unit stack of doom? I never saw it in warlords.

Which map size did you play? If large or huge, I myself had 1) a fleet ofr about 100 privateers because of it was profittable, 2) 150 cavarly army before starting a war because my neighbor was a #1 in rank and he was agressive.

That's ok for levels Monarch and higher and large/huge maps.

 

[travathian]

Yes, I see that. Recoats offer no advantage to me in this game as I am dealing with alot of old junk thrown at me, not getting the 25% bonus versus gunpowder units. Don't get me wrong, CGIII redcoats out of the gate in any city (running theocracy) is great but no more advantage than any other protective rifleman. I have alot of city raider III redocats now (upgraded early units) but no great advantage now and I will likely be upgrading them to infantry before I see any significant number of muskets/rifles.

Definitely drill. They are already immune to collateral damage, so that means catapults/trebs do nothing. 3-4 first strikes with the amount of damage they do means most of that stack will die before even getting a chance to attack. Even if they do get to attack, between the fortify bonus, any city bonuses, plus the high attack value the machinegunners will take very little damage. I always bring a couple along with my attack force to hold cities while the stack moves on.

 

[madscientist]

Definitely drill. They are already immune to collateral damage, so that means catapults/trebs do nothing. 3-4 first strikes with the amount of damage they do means most of that stack will die before even getting a chance to attack. Even if they do get to attack, between the fortify bonus, any city bonuses, plus the high attack value the machinegunners will take very little damage. I always bring a couple along with my attack force to hold cities while the stack moves on.

I think you are talking about machine guns (I mentioned it in another post in this thread), but here I am talking about redcoats who replace riflemen. They start with fre drill I and CG I plus do 25% more damage to mounted and gunpowder units. A drill II and Drill III each add 20% less collatoral damage as well as improving chances of first strike.

So Redcoats will never be immune to collatoral damage (As I found out)

 

[madscientist]

OK, I can see another stack of Doom mounting and this one will not be as obsolete HELP!!!!

Agusutus in now ahead in the Power Graph (no much, but he is building faster than me). He is pissed!!!

Right now he has cavalry and rifles and I think cannons. Darius has artillery and rifles but no horse resource. I have machine guns, infantry, cannons, cavalry. Everyone has airships. I am also trying to build some factories/plants/health which is discussed in another thread, but half of my cities are spamming out cavalry/cannons/machine guns. I alsi have two island cities with drydocks that are spamming destroyers/transports. I almost have electricity teched out and plan indutrialisation for tanks (as I see, agustus and darius do not have an oil reserve). Next I would tech flight/artillery/rocketry.

In addition, I do not trust Qin and his three colonies (a few techs behind me) and Justin has been cautiously idle in his continent but is close in the pwoer graph and the only tech close to me.

So what do I do. Remember I am an ugly, but semi-competent war-monger.

So some more direct questions.

1) I am hording units in my border cities. My plan if attacked is to remove all units except some garrison, most likely machine guns and 1 or 2 token CG III infantry. After a border city is captured I plan to counter attack and hopely kill alot more Roamn than I lose units.

2) Unfortunately the oil is between a former Persian and Roman city. I may not be able to hold one and could lose both. Any suggestions on a glorious defense that would work?

3) Esionage, another possibility is to mass produce spies and trash the know roman horse resources. But this will take hammers/time away from military and buildings.

4) Darius should be ripe to take out but he is defended by rifles and has artillery (I am too far off to tech it and no one will/can trade it). How can I neutralize the artillery? My plan is to agressive take out the 2 closest and most powerful Persian cities first, then let my vassal lapdog Stalin harrass him enough with Cossacks.

5) I do control the seas so I was thinking of building a fleet of destroyers/transports with an assault team of maybe 12-15 units with amphibious promotions to take out Agustus last costal cities. Is it worth sacrificing some front line units in favor of a smeak attack along the coast (this could be insurance againt another Chinese backstab job).

So my plan would be to continue building rather than initiate anything, build tanks ASAP, build a fleet with an assault army to take roman coastal cities. My initial plan if attacked is to neutralize Darius while palying defensive along the Roman border.

One last question regarding corps. I have a great scientist and great merchant saved in London. If I tech plastics after industrialisation I can found the great ethanol company, oil problem solved but more important Agustus does not get it. I can found Sids Seafood by teching medicine which gives me quite a bit of food but more importantly major culture boost in teh border cities (the former Roamn city bordering the oil reserve is going in/out of revolt even after a great artist culture bomb). I could also use both great people for a golden age (Marathon speed, so 16 turns) to speed teching and building up.

Civics curently are universal sufferage, free speech, emacipation, state property, theocracy.

 

[Percy]

How best to promote Machine guns to maximize defense (well, I guess that's all they do), assumeing I have three free promotions?

I was answering to that as well. For Redcoats, Drill could possibly be a good idea, but you might want to mix in some CG to up their Strength, so that First Strikes are useful.

 

[patagonia]

I was answering to that as well. For Redcoats, Drill could possibly be a good idea, but you might want to mix in some CG to up their Strength, so that First Strikes are useful.

Unless they changed it in BtS, machine guns can't get CG promotions because they're classified as siege.

The best way to get around that problem is to build CG grenadiers which you can then upgrade to machine guns, but it's too late for that now.

If you can anticipate where an attack is likely, the best thing to do is to mass barrage cannon in the target city ready to pulverize the stack in question; if you've got railroads built, you can position them midway along the border to cover more territory.

The best option though, if you've got sufficient diplomatic clout to manage it, is to bribe someone else into war with Augustus and then launch your own offensive while he's preoccupied - check the power graph every turn and when his starts to nosedive is the best time to strike.

 

[Percy]

I said "for Redcoats"

 

[patagonia]

I said "for Redcoats"

*rubs sleepy eyes*

 

[madscientist]

The best option though, if you've got sufficient diplomatic clout to manage it, is to bribe someone else into war with Augustus and then launch your own offensive while he's preoccupied - check the power graph every turn and when his starts to nosedive is the best time to strike.

That is my usual strat but noone is there to do it. Qin has three vassals and he is annoyed with me. Justin is happy in isolation. Frederick is useless in a far away land and is annoyed. Tokugawa is Tokugawa. Finally Pericles is pretyt much Tokugawas whipping boy, and he also is not an AI who apparently can be bribed.

I am afraid the only one to protect the world from Roman Tyranny is me.

 

[madscientist]

I said "for Redcoats"

Just so I understand what you are saying, redcoats start with Drill I, can be promoted to Drill II and so forth. But Redcoats are not IMMUNE to collaterall damage, drill II and above just reduces it, correct?

 

[Percy]

madscientist, i was answering to patagonia's post.

Earlier, you mentioned Machine Guns, and so i advised you to give them Drill Promotions if you were facing weaker units. Then you said that you apparently didn't mean Machine Guns, but Redcoats. Obviously, they have less strength, and since First Strikes are much more useful with a higher strength, and almost useless with a lower one, it changes the piece of advice a bit.

So, if you're going to use Redcoats, i'd say that you shoudl give them a couple of promotions that gives them the edge over the attackers, and then a couple of Drill promotions.
As for Drill reducing collateral damage, yeah, from Drill II onwards, it gives 20% per level. Drill IV also gives +10% vs Mounted.

 

[madscientist]

madscientist, i was answering to patagonia's post.

Earlier, you mentioned Machine Guns, and so i advised you to give them Drill Promotions if you were facing weaker units. Then you said that you apparently didn't mean Machine Guns, but Redcoats. Obviously, they have less strength, and since First Strikes are much more useful with a higher strength, and almost useless with a lower one, it changes the piece of advice a bit.

So, if you're going to use Redcoats, i'd say that you shoudl give them a couple of promotions that gives them the edge over the attackers, and then a couple of Drill promotions.
As for Drill reducing collateral damage, yeah, from Drill II onwards, it gives 20% per level. Drill IV also gives +10% vs Mounted.

OK thanks. I am a little dense sometimes, just wanted to make sure I understand.

 

[Percy]

Don't worry, cross-answers often make posts confusing. Recap'ing cannot hurt

 

[madscientist]

So now let me look at it this way regarding machine guns. All retrospect sicne I have assembly line and infantry.

1) I could built grenaders with three promotion, so I get CG III, Drill II right off the bat.
2) With railroad, I upgrade grenaders CG III and Drill II to machine guns.
3) Each city has one defender that has a strength of 31.5 (18 + 75%), is immune to collatoral damage, gets an additional 25% defense for digging in, plus get several first strikes. How the hell would cavalry/rifles get through that.
4) I missed my window of opportunity there.
5) I have aquired alot more respect for the protective trait playing this one game.

I had CIV IV from the first Christmas it was released, but never quite realized or utilized machine guns power.

 

[travathian]

I too was referring to machine gunners. madscientist, why dont you post some screen shots.

 

[madscientist]

I too was referring to machine gunners. madscientist, why dont you post some screen shots.

I probably will tonight. I generally do a poor job at screenshots but will give at another go.

 

[stuttrboy]

5) I have aquired alot more respect for the protective trait playing this one game.

I like the protective trait once gunpowder hits the scene. That extra free CG promo is great when garrisoning newly captured towns. I rarely use archers/longbows mostly because those techs tend to be off my preferred tech path. To be honest I don't really like CG promos that much. Don't get me wrong, they are incredibly useful as defensive units for newly captured cities on your borders but I prefer a more agressive defense. I don't like to hole up behind my walls and let the AI's units pillage those towns I just acquired. So I usually meet attackers in the field and let my SOD intercept theirs.

CG promos are nice for those border cities you just took before the culture push comes up but those units usually travel close behind or with the SOD as more active defenders garrison the towns. With Protective you get the best of both worlds, free CG and a free drill promo and all gunpowder units become descent guard units but can still be specialized.

 

[Skallagrimson]

1) Has anyone ever seen a 70 unit stack of doom? I never saw it in warlords.

I saw 2 of 'em: once in a game I'm still playing, fielded by Ragnar (mostly horse archers and a few Berserkers--this is medieval era but I slingshotted from Liberalism to Nationalism, researched Mil Trad, and how have Cavalry, although not many are built yet and there's a city I've captured, re-lost, and recaptured something like 4 times already, due to his massive reconquest stacks), and once by Montezuma when I'd taken a few of Catherine's cities, and unbelievably she went from bad relations with Monty to volunteering to be his vassal if he'd declare war on me (went from Friendly to war with the snap of a finger--NEVER TRUST THE FREAKING "ATTITUDE" THEY PRETEND TO HAVE TOWARDS YOU!!!) I had tanks and infantry, but three different stacks of Cavs and Cannons came at one city: a 75, a 45, and a 25. Unbelievably I was able to hang onto the city by airlifting (this was overseas from my original land mass) Marine units promoted to CG2, each turn, to supplement my original 15-deep attack stack of tanks, cannons (hadn't gotten Artillery yet), and infantry. Lost about half my units, but the city held, and when Monty was down to about 20 units total, weakened to about 1 point each, they finally gave up and ran back to his zone.

I've also seen runners-up obsolete stacks fielded by Cyrus, of all people. And one time, oddly, by a Churchill AI (which completely caught me off-guard!)

2) Was this scroched earth method a decent approach or could I have done this better? Razing 2 major (and useful) Roman cities were a waste, but I have no cultural problems now and why take cities Agustus will likely try to retake with another stack of doom?

To me it's a matter of the military situation. If I can prevail eventually in the war, my knee-jerk is to keep. In fact, the only plundering I like to do is to wear Towns down to Cottages (and let them re-grow to Towns after my cities work the squares). The two challenges to that approach are cultural and military: it eats up more units to occupy the conquered and kept cities; and if the enemy culture is strong nearby, the cities spend most of their time in revolt over and over until they go back into enemy control.

If I'm militarily weakened and losing the war, I grudgingly go into "sore loser" mode and just plunder and raze everything in the path of my units--even to the degree of avoiding combat, just go for plunder and razing.

3) Forts: I notice the lone oil reserve has a fort built on it. Does this act like a city and give the AI immediate access to oil without a well (meaning I don't have to build a well myself if I have the fort/oil squar ein my cultural border).

Not in regular Civ4 or Warlords (not sure about BTS rules on this). A well will destroy the fort, and vice-versa. However, if a city gets built on a resource square, it works the resource as if it had the well/plantation/mine/whatever just outside its fat cross.

 

[madscientist]

I saw 2 of 'em: once in a game I'm still playing, fielded by Ragnar (mostly horse archers and a few Berserkers--this is medieval era but I slingshotted from Liberalism to Nationalism, researched Mil Trad, and how have Cavalry, although not many are built yet and there's a city I've captured, re-lost, and recaptured something like 4 times already, due to his massive reconquest stacks), and once by Montezuma when I'd taken a few of Catherine's cities, and unbelievably she went from bad relations with Monty to volunteering to be his vassal if he'd declare war on me (went from Friendly to war with the snap of a finger--NEVER TRUST THE FREAKING "ATTITUDE" THEY PRETEND TO HAVE TOWARDS YOU!!!) I had tanks and infantry, but three different stacks of Cavs and Cannons came at one city: a 75, a 45, and a 25. Unbelievably I was able to hang onto the city by airlifting (this was overseas from my original land mass) Marine units promoted to CG2, each turn, to supplement my original 15-deep attack stack of tanks, cannons (hadn't gotten Artillery yet), and infantry. Lost about half my units, but the city held, and when Monty was down to about 20 units total, weakened to about 1 point each, they finally gave up and ran back to his zone.

I've also seen runners-up obsolete stacks fielded by Cyrus, of all people. And one time, oddly, by a Churchill AI (which completely caught me off-guard!)



To me it's a matter of the military situation. If I can prevail eventually in the war, my knee-jerk is to keep. In fact, the only plundering I like to do is to wear Towns down to Cottages (and let them re-grow to Towns after my cities work the squares). The two challenges to that approach are cultural and military: it eats up more units to occupy the conquered and kept cities; and if the enemy culture is strong nearby, the cities spend most of their time in revolt over and over until they go back into enemy control.

If I'm militarily weakened and losing the war, I grudgingly go into "sore loser" mode and just plunder and raze everything in the path of my units--even to the degree of avoiding combat, just go for plunder and razing.



Not in regular Civ4 or Warlords (not sure about BTS rules on this). A well will destroy the fort, and vice-versa. However, if a city gets built on a resource square, it works the resource as if it had the well/plantation/mine/whatever just outside its fat cross.

Thanks for the reply. One thing I found out is that in BTS a fort build ontop of a resource gives immediate access to the resource (at least when I tech combustion it will). To me it's better than a well as it saves build time and easier to defend since the fort defends like a city and can support air units.

 

[Skallagrimson]

How the hell would cavalry/rifles get through that.

Numbers, numbers, numbers. Unrealistically but true in Civ4, if you field a sufficient number of Warriors, they'll eventually wear down and destroy Mech Infantries with CGIII garrisoned in a city long enough to boost its fortify bonus to 25%, and with that city on a hill.

It's never a sufficient comfort factor, in Civ, to say "this unit is so advanced, it's unbeatable!" The AIs prove you wrong on that every time.

I had CIV IV from the first Christmas it was released, but never quite realized or utilized machine guns power.

To me it's an equalizer if an advanced AI throws Infantry at me and I'm still defending with Grenadiers: promote to Machine Guns, and now, instead of "doomed to the dustbin of history", I have a chance at survival. Not a guarantee, but a chance.

In my Industrial era attack-stacks, I usually include three Machine Gunners: one as a Medical unit; one as a "terrain defender" (promoted from Grenadier, Guerilla I and Woodsman I), and one as a "flatland defender" (Combat II). They're not quite so impressive against waves of Cavalry (or tanks...) but against lesser units they're an efficient play.