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The Perfect Strategy

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Neo Guderian, Nov 7, 2001.

  1. Moeniir

    Moeniir Mr FLICster

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    Neo - great strategy!

    I started a King level game on a large map yesterday with max civs for Large (don't remember, like 7 or 8 other civs?) and Raging Hordes to try out the Papal Doctrine. I played as the English.

    I played it a little differently, setting science down immediately, and sending out several scouts to find other civs. I began tech trading as soon as I found each civ. On a whim, I after founding only 2 cities, I decided to go straight for Pyramids in my capital, forgoing the building of any grainaries. I had a sweet location with plenty of food plain for growth and hills to mine for shields, and I had several workers to improve the terrain. Big mistake, in the end... by the time I was ready to expand, I had the Germans and Russians building towns right on my borders, and nowhere to grow. I will definately do the land-grab first next time.

    I played up until shortly after I entered Medieval times. The Germans attacked, and eventually took London. But, I learned alot! A few things of note:

    * The science rate is screwy. Instead of setting science to 0, I set it to 10%, to allow a little research (Still in despotism). Every now and then, I would gain a tech before someone else, giving me something new to sell. BUT, on a couple of occaisions, I got restless (such as when waiting to discover mapmaking) so, I tried upping my science rate. IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE. This was at a point in the game when my per-turn income was like 45. Now, at the time, I was busy micromanaging a few other things, and shurgged it off. Next game I will investigate more closely. I'm guessing that income from other civs doesn't go towards science, so my effective per-turn income was much lower. But still, i found that 0% Sci meant never discover anything, 10% meant 24 turns to map making, 100% ALSO meant 24 turns to map making. Even left the settings for a turn to see if it changed. Nope. Also, once I got to Republic, I tried again. 10%-40% were all the same slow rate. Once I hit 50%, each additional 10% shortened research time by a few turns. Why isn't this a sliding scale from 10 to 100%?

    * Explorers are nice for finding other civs early, but early on they don't have much to trade. Sometimes it was worth withholding a tech for a few turns to let someone make some money.

    * On a couple of occaisions, Rome had an additional item in the trade window... a Worker! After a quick look in the manual, it seems that any worker in his civ's capital city can be traded. I traded him something for his worker, but was woried how I would walk the worker back to my empire. No worries - he appeared in MY capital!

    * Explorers and Raging Hordes don't always mix ;) .

    * Get to Know and Love your Foreign Advisor, in the top left of the diplomacy window. I don't know if he is as helpful in harder levels, but at king he was indispensible. He will tell you if your deal on the table is likely to be accepted. Using his feedback, I always got the best deals. Just keep tweaking until he say they won't go for it, then back off a bit until he says they will.

    * While crafting a deal, play with the per-turn verses lump sum settings. Depending on mood, cash on hand, and i'm sure, many other factors, sometimes the computer values hard cash more, sometimes per-turn cash is better. I usually try to get the most per turn I can ( with advisors feedback ), and then add a lump sum (also with feedback) to get the most buck for the bang.

    * Don't be weak! Others have pointed this out. I let my military stay small, and watched as the other civs' attitudes towards me grew poorer and their trades got more expensive to me. When I strated to build a military (too little, too late), it did start to improve.

    * Question: any way to see what the other guys has (especially tech) BEFORE you go to the table? Even with an embassy, the foreign advisor screen (F4) has precious little info.

    Well, I'm off to try again. Wish me luck!
     
  2. runaway

    runaway Maud'dib

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    The science rate appears "screwy" because the percentage is applied to each city indivually, not to the total income as a whole. Say you set 40% science and 60% treasury. Your city producing one gold will put that entire one gold in the treasury. Note that this isn't really a 40/60 ratio, it's a 0/100 ratio. A different city producing three gold will (I think) put two gold in the treasury and one towards science. Here it's a 33/67 ratio.

    The point is that the game tries to get as close as possible to the ratio you set on a per-city basis.

    Possibly it would make the slider more useful, however, if it did it on a civilization-wide scale... I've had times where I move the slider 10% and get an enormous jump from a huge +gold per turn to a huge -gold per turn.
     
  3. morpheus133

    morpheus133 Chieftain

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    i have found setting your research to 10% is ideal for the early game. this gives you a decent income which you can use to buy techs from other civs, and it appears that no matter what the longest a tech can take to research is 32 turns. since at higher difficulty lvls the computer cheats SO bad, its impossible to keep up in research by doing it yourself. but by buying and selling the techs back and forth you can make tons of money and be near the head of the pack. the great library wonder can be a major boon to aid in this stategy as well. that and pyramids are probably my favorite ancient times wonders that i go for. i like the egyptians for their industrious/religious, though indians can work well too.
     
  4. Out4Blood

    Out4Blood Chieftain

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    Morph! Go back to Kohan you fool! Don't get caught up in the addiction! Save yerself.......
     
  5. morpheus133

    morpheus133 Chieftain

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    its... too... late... for... me... lol. i will probably start playing some more kohan after i get my civ3 fix. im just not sure about the xpac yet. but kohan is definitely my favorite rts game(anyone who hasn't played it should check it out at www.kohan.net)
     
  6. DavesWorld

    DavesWorld Chieftain

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    Nov 15, 2001
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    .. pin the AI in the dark ages in CivIII. In CivII it was a routine, my game was unusual if the AI *did* manage to get ahead of me Technologically, and it was also unusual if it managed to start catching up to me. My standard CivII games always involved me hitting Tanks and Howitizers while the AI still had Knights and Ironclads. It was simply that easy to build faster and deeper than the AI in CivII; and PopPoints working under multiplier buildings are what let you get ahead in anything (growth, production, or commerce).

    I haven't found it all that easy to pin the AI in CivIII though, others are? I've had several games where I tried the isolationist(sp?) strategy of maxing research as much as possible and not trading anything to anyone ... they simply traded among themselves and left me out of the loop and surged past. This is with a true isolationist strat however; not a xenophobic one (difference is former leaves other Civs alone while the latter attacks everyone because they're not him). I've had much more success when I slotted myself into the technology loop as the one selling the tech.

    Hadn't considered going full cash and simply riding the AI's coattails technologically...interesting. There aren't any problems with the AI refusing to sell the technology to you? What about them figuring it out and selling it themselves first, before you can buy it and resell?

    Further also, I think Firaxis has mentioned they're going to change the AI to make it value technology it has exclusively higher; that could crimp this, or simply add a few more turns to it while you wait for the *second* AI to discover it, which would then remove the exclusive tag in the weight code.
     
  7. Jove

    Jove Not Lacking Altitude

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    It seems to me that the strategy discussions fall into two categories: deity level and everything else. So far I've had no success at all on Deity level, but I have beat the others. So, maybe there ought to be a Deity level tournament, whoever gets the highest score in defeat wins, and 30 people playing the same map would root out the winning strategy if anyone does win. Anybody up for the Deity tourney?
     
  8. Gosemys

    Gosemys Chieftain

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    seems like a good strategy, but wont you fall behind in the building of wonders?
     
  9. Jimboola

    Jimboola Chieftain

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    Having been inspired to try the Pope strategy it is my opinion that the best Civ to try it with are the Persians. I will agree however that the above use of the Iriq Indians would be good also (especially for getting to other Civ's early).

    The Persians are not the first civ you would think of for this strat but trust me on this.

    First of all the Persians are Industrious and Scientific (regardless of what the manual says - why does it get so many wrong).

    Industriousness was vital in my tests as the civ needs to get an infastructure built up FAST, improving the land and setting up your road network helps ENORMOUSLY. The extra shields generated help too, especially with wonders and units.

    Secondly the Persians are Scientific. Now I know what you are all thinking gentle reader ("whats the point of going all out economy if you are a Scientific civ"). Well there are three main reasons why it is ESSENTIAL. First you get free sci advances, which means for a Pope civ that you do not have to pay for them OR research them...double whammy. Second you get cheap Sci buildings that can help in gaining culture (have you SEEN the culture that a Uni whacks out). Cheaper infastucture again you see. Third is the BIGGY. At some point you will switch to a big scientific resercher, probs when the other civs are not producing many and your cities are nicely set up with improvements. When you do then just SEE the effect.

    If at this point you have changed to Republic (and it is even better once you get Democracy) you will whizz all over the other civs. What you do is, put 30% into luxuries (trust me on this), 10% on taxes (a shame to waste all those marketplaces) and the rest into science. In second age I had virtually eliminated corruption as I was enjoying constant WLTK days (King level)and thus producing more science and money than I could ever have dreamed of. As we came into the third age with my new (Free) advance I had 8200 or so gold (making an extra 200-700 per turn), was making scientific gains in 4 turns and was around 2-5 advances up on other civs who by now were paying me a small fortune (especially money per turn) to buy my scientific advances and keep up. I made space in the 1800's (never made it in the entire GAME before) and at that point I was very close to a cultural victory anyways (early libraries and temples plus all the wonders that I wanted after the ancient era).

    The last thing in the Perians favour in this of course is the dear old Immortal. This was a bonus but a really great one for me. You all say the only problem with this strat is defence and safety. Well 2 or three Immortals per city soon sort that out. As they come to the city smack them with a veteran Immortal or two, a few Horsemen help as usual of course and musket men when available. Two countries tried to attack me in my game, the Indians (not too effective, archers walk up to my city and then defending against Immortals...easy) and the Germans. Lost a few but held firm against the German Knights.

    So overall thanks for the startegy and the biggest and best win that I have ever had, never thought I would gain around 2.5K points for a win.

    I guess this will now be "patched out" by Firaxis.
     
  10. 3amCiv

    3amCiv Chieftain

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    If you're playing on a higher difficulty level, even if you're not using a Pope strat, it's just about impossible not to fall behind on wonders in the early part of the game if you want to be able to grab a good chunk of land.
     
  11. Gosemys

    Gosemys Chieftain

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    "If you're playing on a higher difficulty level, even if you're not using a Pope strat, it's just about impossible not to fall behind on wonders in the early part of the game if you want to be able to grab a good chunk of land."

    this is not my experience. you wont fall behind if you start building them fast. i always start building (for example) the pyramids in my capitol after establishing my 2nd or 3rd city. i always get the wonder this way. meanwhile the other cities pump out settlers. thats enough to grab some land.

    when you have built a couple of more cities your second city is ready to start off the next wonder of your choise... it always works.

    and remember to have a city with good production always building a palace. as your sience proceeds and you get new options you just change that palace build to a wonder, and voila, youre ahead of the coputer by far...
     
  12. ChickinSht

    ChickinSht Small woodland creature

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    What??? What, exactly, is your idea of a high difficulty setting. Hell, the AI usually builds at least two wonders before I even get the tech. Plus, dedicating a whole city to just building a wonder that early on??? I just fall behind on military units and then the comp overruns me. I mean, I just don't see how your strategy works out so that

     
  13. Gosemys

    Gosemys Chieftain

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    thats the way it works for me. its really simple once you get the hang of it. i play on the regent level. playing on higher levels (in my mind) ruins the gameplay.

    and yes, dedicate a city for wonders:
    1. not ONE city for ALL wonders...
    2. it gives you the edge you need to make it before him.
    3. how bad do you want the wonder anyway?
    4. no it doesnt prevent you from rushing at all. if you start pumping out settlers from the other cities as fast as they can afford it you will very soon have more cities than the computer!

    city location is very important, but i guess you know that. and remember to start building that second wonder in time in your second city ;)
     
  14. spork

    spork Chieftain

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    Before this was called the Pope strategy it was known on the forum as "science brokering" and it is the only way I know to reliably win on Diety while keeping all the other game parameters standard. Well, actually, on Diety it's not enough to let others do the fighting for you--so that's one difference. In fact, sustained use of science brokering requires that you keep as many civs around as possible, and keep them rich enough to cover your losses on science investment. This means you should prevent to the best of your ability the AI civs from going to war against each other, because inevitably, one gets wiped out, and there goes an important trading partner.

    I disagree with people who say Diety AI cheating screws up gameplay. Civ3 is otherwise very easy to win, and I think THAT screws up gameplay. What improves it is the constant feeling that you're hanging on by your fingernails against incredible odds, that at any second, it might all fall apart. I love that feeling, and I can only get it on Diety.
     
  15. Jove

    Jove Not Lacking Altitude

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    I have to agree that the Deity level gives the best challenge and therefore the most interesting game. I just won my first Deity level game using the science brokering strategy that everyone is talking about. I'll post the map if anyone is interested in a Deity game that is verifyably winnable. I didn't find that letting the AI kill each other was a problem-- once my civ was advanced enough it was best for me to let them weaken each other, then conquer a few cities and bully what I wanted out of them. In fact, the world was a peaceful place until I started the first war, and then I was able to use my leverage to draw just about all the other civs into wars with each other. You could call it the mayhem strategy.
    However, my deity victory came on the pre-patch version. The GOTM3 is the first game I've played with the patch, and I noticed that when I tried the science brokering bit, most of the other civs would instantly get the technology I just traded with one of them... right in the middle of MY turn! Has anyone else noticed this? It could kill the "Pope" strategy.
     
  16. Ironikinit

    Ironikinit Prince

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    Oh yeah, it does that. They trade on your turn. If you're real careful about who you trade with first you can avoid it somewhat. They trade resources, too.

    Some call it a bug, but I reckon that Soren was trying to beat down yet another exploit.
     
  17. holyman

    holyman Chieftain

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    actually i just try my best to get the great library before 700bc and i'm already 2 techs ahead of most civs by then, with republic on hand( but i choose monarchy instead cos i'm more warlike). from then i traded techs.
     
  18. Thangorodrim

    Thangorodrim Warlord

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    You could set science to 10% and get like 10 gpt in the beginning, then speed up research and crush your enemies
     
  19. King PJ

    King PJ Warlord

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    I know this is a two year old thread, but does this strategy work for conquests 1.22?
     
  20. Gogf

    Gogf Indescribable

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    It's actually a three year old thread.

    Yes, it works in Conquest 1.22, but only on the higher difficulties. On Regent and below, you actually have a bonus over the AI which makes you research faster.
     

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