The phalanx needs help

[Bast]

My complaint is simple. If your opponent doesn't have horses or animal husbandry, this UU is no more unique than any other.

In a game where other UU are getting free promotions and extra strength, I think this UU deserves something other than a counter to a specific unit.

Does the AI attack with chariots anyway?

I think it deserves the 100% defence against chariots and a free march promotion.

 

[Sephlock]

Au contraire! Alexander's Phalanxes make Praetorians very sad. VERY sad indeed! (At least in the game I played, the AI liked to give them the +25% vs melee units promotion).

 

[kokoras]

Phalanx has only a 15%DEFENSE bonus vs chariot as a unique ability,so instead af building axeman and spearmen you need to build phalanx and spearmen.It is a same that they have redused the ability of the unit so much,actually this is not a UU any more but just another unit.
Compared to other UU that are overpowered phalanx(that was the dominator of the ancient world) has become a unit with no real power.
Phalanx sould have at least 50% vs mounted units not only vs chariot.
And something else,why did they change the grafic,i realy don't know...

 

[Bast]

Phalanx has only a 15%DEFENSE bonus vs chariot as a unique ability,so instead af building axeman and spearmen you need to build phalanx and spearmen.It is a same that they have redused the ability of the unit so much,actually this is not a UU any more but just another unit.
Compared to other UU that are overpowered phalanx(that was the dominator of the ancient world) has become a unit with no real power.
Phalanx sould have at least 50% vs mounted units not only vs chariot.
And something else,why did they change the grafic,i realy don't know...

The graphic is nice. But I agree. The problem is that when going up against an opponent without horses, a Greek phalanx is the same as an English axeman or Chinese axeman.

No barbs chariots either. It's just so underwhelming.

Now I know people are going to start saying Alexander's phalanxes are awesome. Ok I agree but consider this if you're attacking an opponent without horses, Alexander's phalanxes are exactly the same as Ragnar's axemen except Ragnar will actually get better macemen replacements than Alexander.

Really this is wrong.

 

[kokoras]

The fact is that at least before we knew that phalanx is the best unit to attack mounted units in the ancient world(not that this is correct but...),so we had to build axemen,swordsman and phalanx.Now we have to build phalanx,swordsman and spearmen without the bonus vs mounted units,so were is the upgrade???
I understand wanting them to change the ability of this unit after the film ''300'' but giving at a UU the ability that has another normal unit(axeman)and at the same time cancel it's only real unique ability isn't exaclty a progress...

 

[BYC]

It's fine as it is.

Remember back in vanilla how getting axes = win? Well, with the phalanx, it's that way again. There's no counters at all. That's pretty damn unique.

 

[El_Chimpo]

The problem is more to do with the AI never using Chariots. By the time the AI has secured its self a source of horses most of the time it will have already researched horseback riding. It sucks in comparison to other unique units as well, the Landsknecht gets +100% vs. melee units why can't the phalanx get +100% against mounted units?

 

[Nay]

Counter to Phalanx = Horsearcher

The AI uses chariots now, that i can assure.
In my last game, Cyrus used more chariots than immortals, simply because i had Spearmen.

The basic attack pattern was as follows:
2 Cats (when he finally got them) to weaken all
2 Shockophants to weaken/kill the Spearmen
2-3 CR-Swords to weaken Axes
2-4 Schock/CR-Axes to weaken/kill Spears/Axes
4 Shock-Chariots to wipe the Axes/Spears

 

[kokoras]

It's fine as it is.

Remember back in vanilla how getting axes = win? Well, with the phalanx, it's that way again. There's no counters at all. That's pretty damn unique.

All players have the ability to build axeman,either with bronze or iron you may build them so it's not exactly a fortune if you can build an axemen,and since you need the same resources to build a phalanx then you don't have a bonus vs the others.
Comparing it with the other UU you will see that for a unit that represents the best known army of the ancient world it is not only overpowered but redused to a simple unit,because you simply have a small defence bonus vs a unit(chariot)of a small importance,as it is ugraded by horsmen very fast.

 

[scy12]

How to fix ? + 100 against mountain units and we really now do have a unit that doesn't make us miss the old phalanx. A bit too good ? yes but so is the volture and several other units. And this is the phalanx after all.

 

[El_Chimpo]

Counter to Phalanx = Horsearcher

The AI uses chariots now, that i can assure.
In my last game, Cyrus used more chariots than immortals, simply because i had Spearmen.

The basic attack pattern was as follows:
2 Cats (when he finally got them) to weaken all
2 Shockophants to weaken/kill the Spearmen
2-3 CR-Swords to weaken Axes
2-4 Schock/CR-Axes to weaken/kill Spears/Axes
4 Shock-Chariots to wipe the Axes/Spears

Hate to nit pick but don't immortals replace chariots?

 

[kokoras]

How to fix ? + 100 against mountain units and we really now do have a unit that doesn't make us miss the old phalanx. A bit too good ? yes but so is the volture and several other units. And this is the phalanx after all.

Indeed...the intension of a UU is to give a bonus vs common units,well the phalanx just don't have this kind of bonus.
Who knows maybe it sould have a bonus vs workers or settlers since it's combat abilities are so redused.

 

[Figaro]

They changed the Phalanx from being a Spearman to being an Axeman replacement due to the the way it was used generally rather aggressively. The problem with giving the Phalanx +100% vs Mounted Units is that that makes it superior to the Spearman in every way; essentially making it a replacement for both units. No other UU is like this; although the Landsknecht has +100% vs Melee and the Maceman only +50%, they both end up with St.12 vs Melee units, meaning the Maceman is worse than the Lansknecht against Mounted, the same against Melee and better against Archers.

Condensed: If you gave the Phalanx +100%vs Mounted it would be better than the Spearman against everything, hence making Spearmen pointless as well as preventing the Greek player from building Axemen.

 

[Bast]

I think they were on the right track when they were to going to give the phalanx the march promotion.

I say give it the 100% defense against chariots AND give it a free march promotion. Why? Because AIs won't have horses all the time. So march actually would be useful in that case.

To me, the phalanx is an offensive unit. They got it right by switching it from spearman to axeman but they just didn't do enough.

Fact is, march isn't exactly broken either. It just means they can move very fast in the ancient era in their conquests and they need to before their opponents get horse archers.

 

[Ammar]

I disagree. As said above the Phalanx has no early counter at all. It's true that the AI does not tend to build many chariots, but in multiplayer it's a real blessing to have to built only one type of unit early on.

 

[kokoras]

Or...
A:It could steel maintain the abilities that has with an increased total power from 5MP to 6MP.
B:Have a 75% vs melle units and no bonus vs chariot or mounted units.
I believe by this you don't create a little ''monster'' unit but just a good UU.

 

[scy12]

They changed the Phalanx from being a Spearman to being an Axeman replacement due to the the way it was used generally rather aggressively. The problem with giving the Phalanx +100% vs Mounted Units is that that makes it superior to the Spearman in every way; essentially making it a replacement for both units. No other UU is like this; although the Landsknecht has +100% vs Melee and the Maceman only +50%, they both end up with St.12 vs Melee units, meaning the Maceman is worse than the Lansknecht against Mounted, the same against Melee and better against Archers.

Condensed: If you gave the Phalanx +100%vs Mounted it would be better than the Spearman against everything, hence making Spearmen pointless as well as preventing the Greek player from building Axemen.

That is great . That is because the spearmen should be pointless when you are using the Phalanx. Think it over again.

 

[kniteowl]

If it were to get free March Promotion then I say eliminate the 100% vs Chariot bonus, because it doesn't really make much of a difference, the Greeks start with Hunting so once you have BW and hook up copper you can build 1 Spearman with your Stack of Phalanx's amd there's also the benefit of keeping that march promotion after upgrading so it can potentially be overpowered but we'll have to test and see.

How about some indirect bonuses like every XP earned by a Phalanx in battle gives +100% GGs points so if your Phalanx gains 2XP from from a battle that's 4XP towards a GG... the UU would be like a mini Imp trait but only last in one era. With unrestricted leaders... any Imp leader combined with the GW that'd be 2 Free GGs in the early game and that could make a difference.

OR maybe double XP points from all battles won, where you'd normally get 2XP from a battle now you can 4XP, it'll be like a Leadership promotion except it's a UU only bonus. Alexander with end up with some nasty highly promoted Phalanx's. Imagine that with Boddica.

 

[Olleus]

How about giving phalanx +50% versus all mounted units?
It would still be weaker than spears against mounted units (specialy chariots) but still be able to hold its own against just about everything that you can throw at it.

And don't even mention the march promotion, that is ridiculously overpowered. Not only do you have a march promoted army of axes, but this then gets promoted into march maces, march grenadiers/rifleman and march infantry. Simply too powerful.

 

[Bast]

How about giving phalanx +50% versus all mounted units?
It would still be weaker than spears against mounted units (specialy chariots) but still be able to hold its own against just about everything that you can throw at it.

And don't even mention the march promotion, that is ridiculously overpowered. Not only do you have a march promoted army of axes, but this then gets promoted into march maces, march grenadiers/rifleman and march infantry. Simply too powerful.

Please I don't hear you complaining about Oromo warriors.