The poll to stop any other hitler threads.

[Stexe]

If you go on regurgitating those same uneducated points, then we will never be able to debate this very far. Let's take a look at the "facts" as you call them:

The only thing you have going for you is that Hitler DID gring Germany out of the depression, albeit only to take it down with him into chaos and disarray in a few decades. That is impressive.

He was also NOT a great military leader. His generals were capable, he himself was a mere corporal, blinded by hatred and lunacy. So he shouldn't be in the game for his military merits either.

As regards your account on the issues already included in the game:

- Slavery: still exists amongst certain African tribes, was the norm of society for thousands of years, so it is in the game for a reason.

- Fascism: now this is a vicious circle. Why is nationalism in the game? How about communism? More evil has been done in the name of democracy than any of those combined. Should we just eliminate all forms of government from the game according to that converted logic of yours?

- Sacrifial altars: see above, slavery.

It would be a different story if you added other elements that are truly offensive. Would it not be great if you could rape every woman and child in every city you conquer and the camera would zoom in so you could see it? In slow motion? How about torturing your enemies? Why can't I crash my aeroplanes into buildings and kill 5000 people?

They should have included those elements in the game, because they are true. It is historically accurate, right?

Finally you get to your real point, belittling and insulting the victims of the Holocaust and their families by calling them "close minded".

I don't even know what to say here. I am just dumbfounded. Unbelievable.

All products that our society produces are reflections of that society's norms and rules. What is considered right and civil. In our society (and when I say society, I mean the WORLD), Adolf Hitler does not fit in. He shouldn't. Luckily there are less people like you and more of us "close-minded" who do not want to see his name or face anywhere.

First off, if you pick apart any person you will find flaws. I wouldn't really include Hitler for his military skills as he did lose and turned on his ally. He did make a few good plans early in his campaign, but overall he was not very successful. I would include him mainly because he united people together for a single cause, albet a horrible one, and was influencial in history. I don't see how I'm calling Holocaust victims "close minded," except that they would argue Hitler not be in the game but allow other atrocities to occur in the game. You have me all wrong. I was not saying that elements should be REMOVED like Slavery, Fascism, and Sacrifical Altars; I'm saying that they are still "offensive" elements and I find it funny that people DO want them removed or do not use them in the game for ethical reasons.

Also, for the "raping" that is needless because it does not streamline gameplay or introduce any new elements. Sure it happens in countless wars, but having specific things like that would just be silly. I'd consider it factored into the decrease of population due to "warcrimes" when you take over a city.

As for torturing your citizens in cities, I'm suprised that isn't included in the game. SMAC (Sid Meier's Alpha Centaur) had Nerve Stapling.

And for "kamikaze" or suicidal techniques, they are somewhat included in the fact you could send an attack with no chance of survival just to damage your opponent slightly. Most catapults are sent in to attack in a suicidal fashion just to do collateral damage.

 

[terentius]

I don't want to see any real historical figures in Civ, except for scenarios.

Albert Einstein was not a mediaeval scientist for the Indians.
Leonardo Da Vinci was not an ancient engineer for the Mongols.
Cleopatra did not live for 6000 years (without once changing her clothes, mind!)
F D Roosevelt did not wear a suit in 1453AD.

...and so on.

 

[Stexe]

I don't want to see any real historical figures in Civ, except for scenarios.

Albert Einstein was not a mediaeval scientist for the Indians.
Leonardo Da Vinci was not an ancient engineer for the Mongols.
Cleopatra did not live for 6000 years (without once changing her clothes, mind!)
F D Roosevelt did not wear a suit in 1453AD.

...and so on.

LoL, don't think of the leaders as actual people, think of them as a representation of what they did and accomplished. Although, I can see your point of not including leaders in the normal game and instead customizing your own or something to that end. Although (even with limitations on the possible leader traits, such as not allowed Industrious and Philosophical together) it would still lead to imbalances with unique units and unique buildings, in my opinion. It would be a nice option though to "customize" your own Civ without modding the game, but that is for another discussion and thread.

Pertaining to this thread, I think the least Firaxis can do is include Hitler in a World War 2 scenario as a playable character along with all the other big forces (recreation of the board game Axis and Allies would be fun, it's one of my all time favorites). For people who disagree that Hitler should be a "Great Leader," he should atleast be featured in a scenario as a playable option along with FDR, Churchill, Stalin, Mussolini, Tojo, and Chiang Kai-Shek.

 

[dante alighieri]

I find the idea that anyone would want Hitler as a leader in the game repulsive. Personally, igf he were a choice for leader I wouldn't buy it. I'd darn sure make a stink in the PX to get it pulled from the shelf. (and I mean every PX, not just the one here. The military would probably do it to.)

 

[dante alighieri]

Rats...I was so agitated by the idea that some people think its ok for Hitler to be in the game I mispelled "if" and "too". sorry about that.

I think its been agreed that Hitler will NEVER be in the game, but the question I suppose is should he have been. I don't see how anyone can honestly think it wouldn't be offensive to others. I'm not jewish, and I'm not european or from european descent and I still think that its remarkably offensive. Yes, other leaders have done horrible things, but Hitler tried to commit genocide.
His name has become practically synonymous with evil, and his image is associated nowadays with White supremacists. I don't think any of the current leaders in the vanilla game at least cause such a negative reaction on such a large amount of people.

 

[kcbrett5]

How is that a racist statement at all? It is simply factual information, not racism. I'm providing information about myself, a racist would probably not have friends of different ethnic or religious backgrounds. Also, considering you asked if I am friends with known white supremists (which I had to do a Google search to find out who they were) implies you assume I am racist. It is extremely insulting to call someone a racist, especially when your grounds for assumption are that I want Hitler included in the game. I guess that makes everyone of the 107+ people who want Hitler in the game a racist?

By the way, if I asked you an offensive question that implied something you're not, I'm sure you'd get bent out of shape too. But I won't stoop to that level.

I find it amusing that you are EXTREMELY insulted by someone calling you a racist yet you continue your callous disregard for people who are offended by the Nazi Holocaust. Unless of course, you are in the camp of Iran's esteemed leader and believe it all was a hoax.

So many people on the internet like to argue that they have superior information. They say their studies have shown the popular opinion to be somewhat skewed and they know the real truth from their extensive research. Somehow they assume nobody else knows anything on the subject and we all just mindlessly believe what we are spoonfed on TV. They are exposing their own ignorance more than anything else.

It is not enlightened or scholarly to suggest Hitler was a great leader of Germany. It is just ignorant. It shows your own bias and your own desire to mark yourself a free an independent thinker. Except the thoughts are dumb. Germany was a wreck when he took over and a wreck when he killed himself. What did he accomplish? He conquered a bunch of people that couldn't defend themselves and then got crushed when the world's two biggest powers got involved.

 

[drkodos]

I find it amusing that you are EXTREMELY insulted by someone calling you a racist yet you continue your callous disregard for people who are offended by the Nazi Holocaust. Unless of course, you are in the camp of Iran's esteemed leader and believe it all was a hoax.

And to wit, I never called him racist, only identified his statement as one, which it is.


I do not think he comprehends the concept that people are not defined by themselves and their own notion of their self, but instead they are defined by what other people think of them.

 

[member66170]

Once again, the Hitler thread is turning into flames - through the fault of more than one person. Swallow your pride and let the conversion go back to the topic.

The real problem is why are people offended by Hitler being in the game, when other 'evil' things are in it. Many many many more people suffered and died from slavery, yet no one says that should be removed; war has killed an inummerable number of people, yet no one says that should be removed; you can raze cities and kill millions of people; yet not says that should be removed.

The problem with Hitler is that he has been incredibly stigmatised and shown to be the graphic representation of 'evil'. Because of that people will always refuse to think about him in any other way. The fact is he is one of the most influencial character of the 20th centuary. For that reason he should be included. Napoleon lost in the end and France was forced to surrender, yet no one would ever argue that he doesn't deserve to be in. I don't understand why people would be offended if he was in the game. Just attack him and kill him as soon as you can. If they somehow think that they are being insulted by the game designers for including him, then they should just grow up. If they or someone they know suffered from Hitler, then they should just see the 'Bigger picture' and that this isn't about them but about representing significant historical people.

 

[Malleus]

First off, if you pick apart any person you will find flaws. I wouldn't really include Hitler for his military skills as he did lose and turned on his ally. He did make a few good plans early in his campaign, but overall he was not very successful. I would include him mainly because he united people together for a single cause, albet a horrible one, and was influencial in history. I don't see how I'm calling Holocaust victims "close minded," except that they would argue Hitler not be in the game but allow other atrocities to occur in the game. You have me all wrong. I was not saying that elements should be REMOVED like Slavery, Fascism, and Sacrifical Altars; I'm saying that they are still "offensive" elements and I find it funny that people DO want them removed or do not use them in the game for ethical reasons.

Also, for the "raping" that is needless because it does not streamline gameplay or introduce any new elements. Sure it happens in countless wars, but having specific things like that would just be silly. I'd consider it factored into the decrease of population due to "warcrimes" when you take over a city.

As for torturing your citizens in cities, I'm suprised that isn't included in the game. SMAC (Sid Meier's Alpha Centaur) had Nerve Stapling.

And for "kamikaze" or suicidal techniques, they are somewhat included in the fact you could send an attack with no chance of survival just to damage your opponent slightly. Most catapults are sent in to attack in a suicidal fashion just to do collateral damage.

Actually you did indirectly call Holocaust victims and their families closed-minded by automatically including them in the group of people who are against Hitler being portrayed anywhere in society.

Also, I did not imply that you meant the aforementioned elements (Fascism etc.) to be removed from the game. You yourself used them as a justification for including Hitler in the game, which I was simply trying to refute.

Other than those points, I think we reached a sort of a consensus.

I think...

 

[hitlerII]

if you want to play as him so badly - MOD HIM IN! I haven't been on this in a while but a while ago kristopherb told me that some one had created a Hitler Mod so if you wanna play as the git - MOD HIM IN! I'm trying to do so now - just so i can choose his traits (i.e dictatorship, Philosophy just for major contradiction).

 

[drkodos]

Once again, the Hitler thread is turning into flames - through the fault of more than one person. Swallow your pride and let the conversion go back to the topic.
.

It should not even be a discussion. The discussion itself is an insulting thing.

To even broach the subject is the height of insensitivity, offensiveness and hostility towards many people.

That fact that you do not see it does not mean it is not so.

 

[hitlerII]

Here here - as regard to my un (i hated the guy personally but..) you have heard of an Anti-Christ right? Well my un is like that and i couldn't make it longer i.e i wnated to be HitlerII - The Anti Hitler but it is too long prolly so i shortened it.

 

[drkodos]

Here here - as regard to my un (i hated the guy personally but..) you have heard of an Anti-Christ right? Well my un is like that and i couldn't make it longer i.e i wnated to be HitlerII - The Anti Hitler but it is too long prolly so i shortened it.

Off this junk MULT.


Whatever happened to the recognition of Godwin's law? This comulent junk should be stuffed into off-topic or completely purged from the bowels of the site like a bad fart from a distended belly.

 

[hitlerII]

mult? what? Any way im kind of multitaskign - i didn't like him as stated above.

 

[drkodos]

mult? what? Any way im kind of multitaskign - i didn't like him as stated above.

Your user name is to good taste as dog feces is to shoes.

 

[hitlerII]

ok then... i said it was a shortened version of my hate of him - i hate squirrels and they.... i can't say my theory *cricks neck*... yet! mwahahaha - anyway if hitler will be put in they might as well put in mussolini (if he isn;t in warlords) and whoever the japanese war was so you can ally them and take out the Axis of Evil - i voted yes for that reason.

 

[member66170]

It should not even be a discussion. The discussion itself is an insulting thing.

To even broach the subject is the height of insensitivity, offensiveness and hostility towards many people.

Any man who thinks that open discussion of any topic is offensive; stands against freedom of speech, and is destroying democracy from within.

 

[hitlerII]

Thats his plan - he must be.... neve mind.

 

[Syagrius]

Your user name is to good taste as dog feces is to shoes.

Eheheheh, good one

 

[drkodos]

Any man who thinks that open discussion of any topic is offensive; stands against freedom of speech, and is destroying democracy from within.

This is not a forum about open discussion, dude. There is a time and place, my man. And this is neither.

Do you hold open discussions about your sexuality around or with young children?
Do you speak openly about your proclivities in front of strangers?


Please. You are far too bright and wise to think that every forum is a proper place in which to discuss anything under the sun.

Freedom of speech does not give people the right to yell fire in a theatre when there is none. There are rules of decorum and protocol that need be followed in civil society.

Thus the advent of Godwin's law, sir, regarding message board postings.


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