The Pyramids--Messed Up Since Civ 1

[BasketCase]

This one's been bugging me since forever and a week, might as well get it off my chest.

I mean, off my keyboard.

Anyway--in Civ 1, the Pyramids made all forms of government available to you. This didn't make much sense to me when I first pulled Civ 1 out of the box. I don't know what the effect was in Civ 2. In Civ 3, it added a granary to all of your cities. Serious confusion there. And now, in Civ 4, the designers went back to something resembling Civ 1--except, with "government" replaced by the civics model, the Pyramids only give you full access to one of the five civics columns. (By the way, in my current game, I discovered this the hard way, expecting to gain access to ALL civics once I finished the Big Pointy Rocks--and, well, guess what? )

The Pyramids have to be the most confused and schizophrenic wonder in the game--they've had all kinds of varied effects as the designers cast about for something that actually benefits the player, and none of the effects they have had, really fit in well with their actual role in world history.

Of course, in starting a thread to figure out what the Pyramids should do, I'm simply doing the same thing all over again.

When I think Pyramids, the first association I tend to make is religious--with the ancient Egyptian concept of the afterlife. Or, considering that it took an extensive and organized effort to build them, they could provide a labor/industry/commerce bonus of some kind. Frankly, though, an effect that inspires/calms the populace makes the most sense to me.

Thoughts?

 

[n0xie]

Most wonders have questionable benefits regarding historical accuracy. It's just a game mechanism...

 

[Xanikk999]

I agree with the last poster but let me tell you something.

In civ2 the wonder that acted like pyramids in civ 1 and civ4 was the statue of liberty.

Think about this. You could build the statue of liberty and immediatly switch to communism if you want. Or switch to fundamentalism (religious fanatic Government in civ2).

That doesnt seem to have anything to do with the statue of liberty.

 

[Hamminator]

The Pyramid- +1 happiness per city because the dead were buried there and happy because it is roomy. Because no one wants angry dead people (sometimes makes zombies).

 

[Chamaedrys]

In Civ2 the pyramids provide a free granary in every city. That was a strong effect. I think it should represent the advanced and well organised agriculture of the old egypt.

 

[Dudedudeyo]

how about access to all the religous civics

 

[gmanne]

The pyrimids are pretty impressive, how about a diplomatic bonus? Or a bonus to religion 'spread'? Or a new trade resource, 'postcards'?

 

[MrPaladin]

Everyone knows that the pirimids are really landing platforms for UFO's, they should give a bonus to space race advances

 

[maltz]

Yeah, none of the wonder makes sense. The Pyramid's advantage is a little too much, though. In harder difficulties Representation is the only way to push the pop. limit to match the AIs. (On Deity, the AIs come with 4 more free s in every city compared to the player.)

 

[atreas]

The Pyramids, traditionally in civ, is the one and only ancient wonder that doesn't lose its effect (in the meaning that it is the only one of the 7 ancient wonders that still exists). The problem was always to find a balanced reward for them - something that wasn't achieved IMO in any of the versions except (perhaps) the current one. Although their current effect is still quite attractive.

 

[gunkulator]

As far as wonders of the world go, the pyramids demonstrate both the pinnacle of ancient engineering and the most costly diversion of national resources. Without question, they were massive undertaking.

And also without question, they represent the biggest waste of labor, brainpower and material mankind has ever seen. When all is said in done, the pyramids are nothing more than a big pile of rocks in the sand. They provide no benefit to man whatsoever. And once was not enough. Egypt built these testaments to man's folly over and over again. Maybe the Hanging Gardens could only be seen by royalty but at least they could be used by a living person. The pyramids not only have no utilitarian function but they are meant soley for dead people. Actually, one just dead person per pyramid.

So perhaps the builder of pyramids in Civ4 should get nothing at all.

 

[BasketCase]

No utilitarian function from our viewpoint.

Problem with that is, the Pyramids weren't built today. They were built three thousand years ago, and back then they did have a function.

Just as, in medieval times, the existence of Satan was considered fact. He was as real to medieval citizens as nuclear weapons are to us today--and almost as greatly feared.

 

[atreas]

No utilitarian function from our viewpoint.

Problem with that is, the Pyramids weren't built today. They were built three thousand years ago, and back then they did have a function.

Just as, in medieval times, the existence of Satan was considered fact. He was as real to medieval citizens as nuclear weapons are to us today--and almost as greatly feared.

Everything you say is OK except the dating of these monuments - it is generally thought to be built about 4700 years ago, although there are many objections on that dating too (some insist on even older date). Of course 3000 years may look too old for an American, but ...

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

Of course 3000 years may look too old for an American, but ...

And 3000 years ago is somehow more recent to a continental? Come on, our oldest cities are only 400 years old, but they're still older than anyone in Europe.

 

[automator]

Another talk about Civ's interaction with reality?

Give it a rest.

Maybe you shouldn't be able to build Pyramids unless you've got Slavery enabled and have taken at least one worker captive in war.

Maybe Rock 'n' Roll should have the current effect of Effiel Tower (culture booster)

Maybe someone can explain to me how Representation increases culture?

Everything in Civ games are simply game objects. You recognize them because they are named after, and occassionally modeled after real-life objects.

 

[atreas]

And 3000 years ago is somehow more recent to a continental? Come on, our oldest cities are only 400 years old, but they're still older than anyone in Europe.

It's nothing personal or anti-American, but has just to do with exactly the 400 years old that you say: when you live in a city with a history of 400 years 3000 years seem far too many; on the other hand, the city I live has a history of more than 3000 years, so 3000 years doesn't exactly look so many. I repeat it is not personal: I am always surprised by the way my (many) American friends tend to mess up the milleniums .

PS. I will never forget a painting from the museum in Cairo: colors are so bright like if they were painted yesterday, and it's 6000 years old. And, of course, the mask is the masterpiece of masterpieces.

 

[cbutcher318]

First off, where are you from atreas?

Second, almost none of the great wonders benefited anyone. Collosus (pretty statue), Mount Rushmore (A big mountain carving), Notre Dame (A pretty building), StoneHenge (God knows what it is), Versailles, these buildings had nothing to do with their effect in the game. For a realistic game wonders should not exist with any effect, but they add a little pizazz to the game and so I deal with them. Anyone is welcome to mod them out if they like.

 

[lost_civantares]

So what would be the porpose in building them and wasting 20 turns of a cities production?

As for me I like the idea of revealing all the religious civics, or it could reveal and lessen the cost of the theocratic civic, which would make sense historicly.

 

[Guerra]

I build the Pyramids and the Hanging gardens mostly for the great engineer bonus. I had 2 of those in my capital, and got about 30 great engineers in a game, my goodness was my capital productive!

 

[Dusty Monkey]

Honestly, shouldnt it give you a bonus for pop rushing?

Pyramids: +2 culture, +1 great engineer, -25% cost for pop rushing


Or maybe something more relevant to the specifics of egypt itself?

Pyramids: +2 culture, +1 great engineer, +1 commerce from river tiles, -1 commerce from gold tiles.


Or something that recognizes the magnitude of the structure?

Pyramids: +1 great engineer, +4000 culture (one time bonus)


I don't think these are overpowered.