The reign of Khan Early Bird VII (SamE)

[SamE]

Sorry that I've been a bit late in starting this thread. Khan Stilgar08 has graciously given me the opportunity to lead the mighty Mongolia. Anyway, I'm planning on playing the save on Friday, which might end up being Saturday for the Europeans we have here. School's starting again for me, so that's the reason for the delay. Until then, what suggestions do you have?

I'll post a bunch of screenshots some time soon (probably tomorrow). Anyone can access the save, so you all can do the same if you want. My ears (and eyes) are open.

 

[Stilgar08]

SamE: As I pointed out You should state of what you plan to do so we can discuss it!

If you meant that by

I'll post a bunch of screenshots some time soon (probably tomorrow).

then nevermind...

 

[SamE]

Domestic:

Here are our three cities (sorry for the big pics):

Karakorum:

I would go for Stonehenge if no one thinks we shouldn't. It would get us free culture in Turfan and any other cities that we build in the near future. Although both of our other cities either have libraries or are building them, it seems we plan on building more soon. Plus, it's only 6 turns and we don't have stone yet. After that, well, we'll have Horseback Riding, so a Keshik might be in order. We could also build a settler in 6 after we're done with the 'henge. Too many cities might be a problem, though.

Turfan:

The library will get us the culture we need, it's just two turns away. Next, Stilgar08 recommends we build either Barracks or Granary. Either of these would take 4 turns, leaving time to start on something else. I think an Archer would be nice if Karakorum goes to settler. We'll get iron in two turns with a road, so we'll be able to access the Swordsman/Axeman/Spearman line. We're not spending anything on Unit Cost, but I'm not quite sure how that works.

Besbalik:

I wouldn't build a work boat just yet. While clams may be nice for health, none of our cities are close to unhealthy right now. If Beshbalik grows three more times or builds a forge or something, we might consider it, but I wouldn't. Also, a Granary would get us the health we need in two turns fewer. I would build a lighthouse so we can pick up a specialist or three and get cranking on GPP. Since we don't have many viable hammer sources in Beshbalik, I think we should go that route. Extra food also leaves options in the Worker/Settler arena.


Workers:
Slave gang 1 is in between Beshbalik and Karakorum. I would send him to Turfan to build a road to the cows that Turfan will expand to get (in 5 turns). I don't think chopping a random useless forest will help much right now. Karakorum is getting plenty of shields right now, so the effect is minimalized. If it went to Beshbalik, it would be worth it, though.

Slave gangs 2 and 3 just finished the mine next to Karakorum. They'll be roading there to get it and then roading to the corn to get the health. After that, I think at least one of them should improve the area around Turfan. I don't think farming the bananas is worth it even for the food (we're not even working our corn farm). We could send both to build a road to Hatty, and try to get some of her Hinduism. Or maybe we'll end up Jewish. Either way, a connection to her will help us with the whole trade routes thingy in the cities. Maybe slave gang 1 should start on that...


Gold:
We're losing 8 gold per turn! Actually, it isn't that bad, as we have 111 right now. I'm thinking of moving the science % down to 80 after we finish HR. Right now, that would mean -2/turn and HR still in 3. A trade connection with Hatty would help this, and so would finding gold in the hut that scout 3 encountered. I'll wait at least until we pop the hut to change the science.


Science:
Here are our choices after Horseback Riding:
Meditation - 2
Polytheism - 2
Mathematics - 5
Alphabet - 6
Masonry - 2
Metal Casting - 9
Compass - 8

I would go after Masonry next, and then proceed with Alphabet and Mathematics, unless a religion spreads to our empire. Then I would go after Meditation and Priesthood to get those religious buildings.

Religion:
None yet, but Hatty has two: Hinduism and Judaism! Both founded in Thebes, too! She's Hindu right now. According to the F7 page, Buddhism was founded somewhere else before Hinduism, so it doesn't look like Hatty or Saladin has it. We're not too far from Code of Laws (Meditation -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws), but I don't think it's high priority right now. Let's try to get Hinduism.

I'll continue with foreign relations and homeland security tomorrow.

 

[Stilgar08]

Not much to complain about your suggestions, SamE.

I wouldn't build a work boat just yet. While clams may be nice for health, none of our cities are close to unhealthy right now. I would build a lighthouse so we can pick up a specialist or three and get cranking on GPP.

I agree with you here! A lighthouse would be the better option!

Workers:
Slave gang 1 is in between Beshbalik and Karakorum. I would send him to Turfan to build a road to the cows that Turfan will expand to get (in 5 turns). I don't think chopping a random useless forest will help much right now. Karakorum is getting plenty of shields right now, so the effect is minimalized. If it went to Beshbalik, it would be worth it, though.

I don't think it's a bad move to chop the forrest before moving on to the cow:

One move ontio the forrest tile, chopping (what? 3 or 4 turns?) and then moving on to the cow, improving the tile and then road.
If you go to Turfan immediately it'll take you less then 5 turns to finish the road AND you would have to wait (This is said not checking the save... As I pointed out lately I'm pretty busy right now in RL and this is another PC with no Civ4 on it - It'll get better in the next days: Promised! ... )

Slave gangs 2 and 3 just finished the mine next to Karakorum. They'll be roading there to get it and then roading to the corn to get the health. After that, I think at least one of them should improve the area around Turfan. I don't think farming the bananas is worth it even for the food (we're not even working our corn farm).

But we ARE working the bananas! That's why I came up with the idea! We are only not working the corn because our problem right now isn't food...
Improving the bananas would give +1 food, ending the starvation process for Karakorum, still leaving the city in stagnation... Once the 1 unhappy citizen from whipping vanishes (should be in 4 turns, I believe) we can work th corn again until we reach even on happy/unhappy citizens again (or whip again )...

We could send both to build a road to Hatty, and try to get some of her Hinduism. Or maybe we'll end up Jewish. Either way, a connection to her will help us with the whole trade routes thingy in the cities. Maybe slave gang 1 should start on that...

I WOULD agree if it wouldn't be for city no. 4 down south! It needs to get connected and I would put both slavegangs on that task. If we grab Stonehenge we will be able to get the copper and the other ressources @ the city4-spot... It would be good to have city4 connected asap and maybe already prepare the copper tile...

Any other opinions?

Stilgar08

 

[SamE]

Unfortunately, I disagree on all of your points above except the lighthouse.

On the forest chop:

We can't chop the forest since it's not in our territory. I guess that settles it.

On the bananas:

If you look at the screenshot for Karakorum, we aren't working the bananas, right now. If we were working them, that would be stupid because we could just work the farm instead and get 2 more food. We can always set "avoid growth" on if we don't want to grow. And also, AFAIK, we're not experiencing any excess unhappiness right now. We have 8 of each, and that includes the whipping. So it shouldn't be a concern right now.

On the next city:

If it's coastal, it will be connected via Beshbalik by the sea (we have sailing). So we don't need to road down there just yet...only for units.

 

[Blkbird]

On the forest chop:

We can't chop the forest since it's not in our territory. I guess that settles it.

That's absolutely bogus. Where did you get this ridiculous idea?! You can totally chop Forests in neutral territory at any time - and sometimes even in enemy territory. There are extensive guides regarding Forest chop strategies in the Civ4 Tipps subforum. Please consider reading them before saying something so obviously wrong.

 

[Blkbird]

I don't think building Stonehenge is such a good idea. Our current cities already have or will have Library, and Stonehenge will cease with Calendar, which isn't far away any more. Plus there is a chance another nation is already building it. So this would be high risk, low benefit.

 

[Stilgar08]

On the forest chop:

We can't chop the forest since it's not in our territory. I guess that settles it.

this is already answered by Blkbird, so no settle here... I've chopped alot of forrests outside of my boundaries...

I dind't get you on the banana discussion, but it's not "do or die" so I'll refrain from arguing. We were working the tiles when we had to grow...

On the next city:

If it's coastal, it will be connected via Beshbalik by the sea (we have sailing). So we don't need to road down there just yet...only for units.

We at least need one worker down there for improving the tiles and getting that copper!
I don't think a "road to egypt" is higher priority than a road to city4... We have sailing, as you said, we are connected to egypt sooner or later via the sea as well...

Oh, and I'm surprised that you agree with me when I agree with you (concerning the lighthouse)!

Have fun playing! (you wanted to play tonight, correct??)

Cheers, Stilgar

 

[Stilgar08]

I don't think building Stonehenge is such a good idea. Our current cities already have or will have Library, and Stonehenge will cease with Calendar, which isn't far away any more. Plus there is a chance another nation is already building it. So this would be high risk, low benefit.

So what else would you want to build? Cranking out units isn't a good thing with poor economy... I agree that we don'T really play out the traits of the Mongols yet... But we will- And an obelisk will fasten copper-claiming and strenghten Turfan on the brink to Saladin!

If someone beats us, we are screwed, but get money (which we could need - we are running on -8gpt right now and will even get higher in the minus when building city 4 in 2 or three turns...). I hope we will get it, though... And we could avoid calender for a while if we want to...

 

[Blkbird]

If someone beats us, we are screwed, but get money (which we could need - we are running on -8gpt right now and will even get higher in the minus when building city 4 in 2 or three turns...). I hope we will get it, though... And we could avoid calender for a while if we want to...

No we don't want to! We have to work the Banana as soon as possible so the Hapiness in our Capital increases. And that would require Calendar.

I suggest training another Worker, after which Horseback Riding will be ready so we can start training our special unit.

 

[*Satis]

It's wonderful that things are going wrong. This is so much more instructive than a game where everything works.

 

[Blkbird]

Welcome back *Satis! Long time no see.

 

[SamE]

I'm actually going to play it tomorrow morning, due to the discussion/debate we're having here. Don't worry, I won't delay it any longer after that.

First, I'm thinking that we're not playing the same versions of the game. I'm on 1.52. What are we supposed to be using? And what versions are we actually using? Just wondering...

Okay, I was wrong about the forest. I had told the worker to go there, THEN pressed shift to see how long the chop would take. When I didn't see it, I assumed it was because it was outside our territory. I don't chop that often. Anyway, holding shift down before telling them to move yields that it will take just 3 turns and provide 16 shields to Karakorum. This corresponds to about a turn and a half of production at current (high) rates. If we go the Stonehenge route, this would knock at least a turn off the end.

We certainly don't need to beeline to Calendar or pick it up any time soon. The bananas would only give us more food and one health, while all of our cities have at least 6 more health than unhealthiness. That's not going change for a while. Forges add 1, but we still would have aqueducts (with Mathematics) to counter that.

With that in mind, Stonehenge could provide us with a powerful boost in culture in both our capital and our new cities. GPP would begin to pump, although great prophets aren't the best for us. I would go with it right now. In the state Karakorum's in right now, I think it would be best to get it with all of the shields we have. I doubt that other civs would complete it in the next 5 turns, but, as Stilgar08 pointed out, we would get money, which we need badly (if we want to stay at 100% research).

And banana provides health, not happiness.

As for building a worker in Karakorum, it's definitely a good idea, with all of the food and shields we can generate there. I think that once we get the copper city, we can wait a bit before sending out another settler. Though building a Keshik would be cool if we do the 'henge.

Is copper really that valuable? We already have iron, and every unit that copper helps with does just as well with iron. I kind of thought of grabbing the copper as keeping Saladin from getting it. We don't know that he does.

Anyway, I think we've sort of addressed foreign relations: nice to Hatty, nothing right now to Saladin, but war is brewing...probably once we have a bunch of Keshiks.

The settlement location seems pretty simple - we can see all but one of the eight squares around the settler if he goes SW...is that a risk not worth taking? Also, does anyone disagree with the settlement location?

As I said, I'll play it tomorrow morning (in like 10 hours).

 

[Blkbird]

First, I'm thinking that we're not playing the same versions of the game. I'm on 1.52. What are we supposed to be using? And what versions are we actually using? Just wondering...

I think most people are playing 1.52 now, so it should be OK.

With that in mind, Stonehenge could provide us with a powerful boost in culture in both our capital and our new cities.

That seems exaggerated to me. It's a powerful culture boost to the Capital, for sure, but the other cities only get +1, and they're already finishing Library which gives +2. And you still haven't address my concern that some other nation (in particular, Arabia) might already be building the Stonehenge.

But I have to admit, Stonehenge would be great for the next cities we're building. (I'm not that familiar with Stonehenge, I assume it provides Obelisk not only to existing cities, but also to cities built *after* the Stonehenge, right?)

And banana provides health, not happiness.

You're right. My mistake, I apologize.

I think that once we get the copper city, we can wait a bit before sending out another settler.

Please take a look at the settling plan I proposed before Stilgar's turns:



I think after the Copper City (location A), locations B and C should be settled in rather sooner than later. Especially if you're indeed going for Stonehenge (and succeed), we should take the advantage to the fullest by building more cities. Plus, directly near location B is a Gem, so that City is definitely going to bring us more money than it costs right from the start.

Is copper really that valuable? We already have iron, and every unit that copper helps with does just as well with iron. I kind of thought of grabbing the copper as keeping Saladin from getting it. We don't know that he does.

I still hope to build the Colossus in the Copper City, which will be double speed with ... Copper!

The settlement location seems pretty simple - we can see all but one of the eight squares around the settler if he goes SW...is that a risk not worth taking? Also, does anyone disagree with the settlement location?

I strongly urge you to idle the Settler for one turn so the escort catches up. The settling spot is dark (Fog of War), so are the spots N, NW, S, SE of it. I don't know what you mean by "all but one squares".

 

[shenryyr]

I still hope to build the Colossus in the Copper City, which will be double speed with ... Copper!

I'm sure you already know this and the point was purely sentimental having the copper man standing over a copper mine, but you don't have to have copper within the city's workable squares to get the double speed bonus. As long as there is copper/iron/marble/etc in your empire somewhere, you get the benefits for all appropriate wonders/buildings.

This includes trades with other civs. Gotta love it when bismark shares his iron with me because we're both jews.. only to let me build knights and bring some whoop ass to berlin. =D

(I'm not that familiar with Stonehenge, I assume it provides Obelisk not only to existing cities, but also to cities built *after* the Stonehenge, right?)

Precisely. The benefit to non-creative civs are obvious: pushing borders without building anything in newborn cities. Not that libraries and theatres aren't still first on the build list!

I think after the Copper City (location A), locations B and C should be settled in rather sooner than later. Especially if you're indeed going for Stonehenge (and succeed), we should take the advantage to the fullest by building more cities. Plus, directly near location B is a Gem, so that City is definitely going to bring us more money than it costs right from the start.

Yes, but remember each new city brings with it high cost. One is covered by gems, fine, what about the rest? An early game strong economy is directly responsible for being on the leading edge of the tech tree. Accepting -11g/turn is one thing, until it runs out. Add 2 more cities, or even 3, to that, and you're going to have to drastically lower the research rate just to stay afloat.

 

[Blkbird]

Yes, but remember each new city brings with it high cost. One is covered by gems, fine, what about the rest? An early game strong economy is directly responsible for being on the leading edge of the tech tree. Accepting -11g/turn is one thing, until it runs out. Add 2 more cities, or even 3, to that, and you're going to have to drastically lower the research rate just to stay afloat.

Don't dramatize it too much. The Gem City also has a Gold when it grows, and the Marble city will have a Gold as well. That will definitely cover the costs.

I've an early-game heavy-builder, I build roughly double as many city as the AI's do. I do just fine, my research is still at least 50% ahead of the most advanced AI.

 

[SamE]

Okay, I'm going to play it right now. Here's what I took from the last few posts:

-Build a settler in Karakorum after Stonehenge
-Settle spot "B" first to get the gems and gold. (although it won't happen in my 10 turns)

What I meant with "all but one of the squares" came from Stilgar08's suggestion to move the scout back north to see the settler's location. If we move the settler SW, the only square we don't know will be NW (I think). But idling for a turn so the archer can catch up will be fine, since our scout can go to the south end of the peninsula and finish exploring that region.

I think that Turfan would be a good place to build the escort for our next settler.

I'll play it right now then.

 

[SamE]

Turn 1 (1000 BC)

I switched Beshbalik to Lighthouse. Nothing happened between turns. Slavegangs 2 and 3 started and finished the road to the iron. We can now build all of the units available. Our chariot went over to explore the area around city site "B". Karakorum Warrior also went in that direction (he already had those moves directing him). Our settler idled, waiting for Karakorum New Archer to catch up. Scout 1 finished exploring the southern peninsula.

Unfortunately, scout 3 encountered some resistance around the hut:

We'll just have to see what happens...scout 2 moved towards scout 3 to pick up the hut if scout 3 is barely killed (but we wouldn't want to lose two scouts to one warrior!).

Slave gang 1 went into the forest he's going to chop. I ended my turn.

Turn 2 (960 BC)

Nothing happened between turns, which is important because that barb warrior won't move from his tribal village. Too bad scouts can't attack...

Turfan finished its library and started on a Granary (3 turns). The chariot and Karakorum Warrior (who we can upgrade if we want) kept going SE. Slavegangs 2 and 3 roaded to the corn. Now we have more health than we know what to do with (it gets +2 w/Granary). The settler/archer pair are one move away from the city spot. Scout 3 went around the tribal village, and scout 2 is one turn behind him. If one of them is attacked, the other can take the village (but barbs are notorious for not attacking from villages).

Turn 3 (920 BC)

A barb warrior appears two squares NE of Turfan. The barb on the hut won't attack, and Hatty has two axeman and a settler for the area, so we won't be getting the hut.

We researched Horseback Riding, and, as that screenshot shows, we can get Masonry in 1.

Everyone else did what they're doing, and both scouts NW of Egypt will be exploring the area for additional unpopped huts. I lowered our research rate to 80% (no net gold change) and we still get Masonry in 1. We'll found city 4 next turn.

Turn 4 (880 BC)

The barb warrior descends upon Turfan. We'll be fine - our archer is well-trained. We research Masonry! Alphabet is next - in 6 turns. Ning-hsia is founded! We're now at -1 gpt, not bad! Ning-hsia begins on a Granary (10 turns). The archer fortifies.

Scouts 2 and 3 finish up exploring the area NW of Egypt:

There doesn't seem to be anyone else near "B" - except for an Arabian warrior. We send Karakorum Warrior back to Karakorum. Stonehenge comes in 1...

Turn 5 (840 BC)

The barb warrior attacks and dies without a fight. We finish Stonehenge!

Karakorum starts on a settler (6 turns with rearrangement of working tiles). Turfan expands its culture and starts on a Barracks (6) but will grow in 1.

Hatty builds Elephantine in the middle of the peninsula, picking up the hut:

Slave gangs 1 and 3 are now improving the area around Turfan, while slave gang 2 builds a road south out of Karakorum.

Turn 6 (800 BC)

Nothing happens between turns. Our chariot finds a barb warrior on the wheat in that area, but we'll handle him easily. Scouts 2 and 3 return from NW Egypt, one taking the northern coast and one taking the western coast back. Scout 1 is in the process of investigating Arabia's southern border. Karakorum Warrior fortifies in Karakorum. Slave gang 1 is pasturizing the cows, and slave gang 3 is continuing the road to Egypt.

Turn 7 (760 BC)

The barb warrior attacks our chariot and dies. Chariot's at 3.0 and gets a promotion. I choose sentry and fortify for 2 turns to heal. Scout 1 finishes investigating the area around Damascus (Saladin's new city). Our other scouts continue to come back. There's not that much going on...

Since we can already trade with both Egypt and Arabia (probably thru the lake west of Turfan), slave gang 3 will proceed to farm the wheat.

Turn 8 (720 BC)

Beshbalik is now unhappy (1 unhappy person). I add a scientist to the city and lower the research rate for our empire to 70% (-2 gpt). Beshbalik still gets 1 extra food/turn for growth, but it'll be a while before it grows again.

Nothing interesting to report...the scouts are still scouting.

Turn 9 (680 BC)

Ning-hsia's borders expand. Turfan finishes its barracks, begins on Archer (2 turns). Settler will be done in 2 also, and our sentry chariot doesn't see anything in the area around our city "B" spot. It'll be 6 turns before we get a great person in Karakorum - 2/3 scientist, 1/3 prophet right now. It'll probably be higher for the prophet in two turns, but scientist will be more than 50%. Nothing else interesting to report...

Turn 10 (640 BC)

My last turn...

A barb archer appears out of the sliver of land NE of Karakorum. We research Alphabet! Math is next...

We're already ahead of both of our neighbors in research: both by Alphabet and Horseback Riding and Hatty by Metal Casting too, but both of them have Meditation and Hatty has polytheism. They probably have Priesthood and/or Monotheism, too.

To counter the barb archer, I upgrade Karakorum Warrior to an Axeman (and rename him accordingly) and move him out to defend the iron. Since this uses up almost all of our gold, I lower science to 60% (math in 7, +1gpt). We have 3 gold in our treasury.

Nothing else interesting to report for this turn.

I'll post the screenshots and save from the end of this turn in the next post.

And to succeed me as Khan Early Bird VIII, I nominate...Aythanaeus! I'll PM him right now...

 

[SamE]

Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/Early_Bird_BC-0640.Civ4SavedGame

I'll post a bunch of screenshots tomorrow, as well as my comments on what we should do.

 

[Blkbird]

First, congratulations for the success on Stonehenge.

Regarding further screenshots - please don't put them in the thread directly any more, especially not in this huge size. A much better alternative is uploading them to a free image hosting server (like http://imageshack.us/ ) and post the thumbnail links here (like I with my "settling plan maps" above). ImageShack even create forum-compatible code for the thumbnail links for you, ready to be copy-pasted.