The resource reveal changes in 0.16c

[Iblis]

Just wanted to ask people - are we absolutely clear we need these? Given that the AI is pretty thick when it comes to discovering and then using the metal resources through teching and building cities, it's quite easy to do an axe-man/quivalent or mace-man/equivalent rush already. Surely this change will just make it even easier for us humans? Or is the change intended to make it easier for the AI to identify early without teching where the resources are and then research accordingly?

Thoughts/flames gratefully received.

 

[eekhoorn]

My guess is, that once the resource is revealed, additional 'weight' is added to the tech required to use this resource if this resource is in the AI's borders.

So : smelting discovered -> if iron present -> AI more likely to research iron working

Dunno if they implemented anything like that, but if they did, this should make the AI better at getting decent units.

 

[marioflag]

Frankly i think it will make game easier for humans i don't think AI can understand to build a city near a strategic resource like copper or iron just because they are STRATEGIC RESOURCES.
I find also more flavourful to discover copper and iron on terrain when you are able to work these 2 metals, it's not like horse which can be revealed with animal husbandry and you can take full use of them with horseback riding because they are animals, with these 2 metalsm it's different because knowing where these 2 resources are located, imply that you should know how to use it.

 

[Kael]

The AI does understand the value of resources with regard to city location, and Blake's upgraded city placement makes it even better. In fact the AI cheats and doesn't consider what it isn't supposed to be able to see when it picks its cities location. Human players can also take advantage of this by using the blue circles (the "recommended city places") which take into account resources that the player cant see.

I just disliked losing games because I rushed iron working and there was no iron to be found. If there had been iron in my lands it would have been a win. The whole mechanic seemed to random for me so we opted to compromise and force some research for the knowledge (everything costs something) but not the entire line.

 

[Iblis]

Kael - thanks, that makes sense and is what I suspected. I too have suffered many times from the "no horses/copper/iron - argh!" problem but always just chalked that up to being tough luck and having to work around it. Nice to see you're a bit more benevolent

 

[TheJopa]

Heh, I also like this change, especialy with metal techs being expensive. It is great change even if it isn't realistic.
I was often frustrated, discovering iron working and then finding out that nearest iron is 15 squares away from border... Had I knew that before, I would force building city there, or discover something else instead
:goodjob

 

[Maniac]

How about making Blasting Powder visible with Alchemy? Currently this tech is kinda useless if Typhoid Mary has already been built.

 

[Mithrus]

I think the change is actually far more realistic. First you need to find new matierals, THEN you figure out what to do with it. Heck, I believe the vast majority of new materials discovered didn't have an initial use until much later (sometimes decades), so discovering a resouce first, then learning how to make it useful is very appropriate.

 

[ChaoticWanderer]

i know this soudns stupid too people but i wonder if sea resources shouldnt be visible until fishing since how would you know fish are there if you cant go into the water LOL maybe an early sailing tech like craftmanship is early mining tech i also think that maybe stone & marble should be visible with craftmanship

 

[DieselBiscuit]

i know this soudns stupid too people but i wonder if sea resources shouldnt be visible until fishing since how would you know fish are there if you cant go into the water LOL maybe an early sailing tech like craftmanship is early mining tech i also think that maybe stone & marble should be visible with craftmanship

You really hate the Lanun, don't you?

 

[Nero's fire]

Finally Smelting has a use again. Something should probably still be added though since workshops still aren't a very good improvement especially right out of the box. I liked how civics were incorperated to improve farms perhaps something else could be down about workshops, maybe sacrafice the weak could add an additional +1 Hammer or Guilds could add +1 food.

 

[BeefontheBone]

In fact the AI cheats and doesn't consider what it isn't supposed to be able to see when it picks its cities location. Human players can also take advantage of this by using the blue circles (the "recommended city places") which take into account resources that the player cant see.

That was the case in 1.00 (it used the tile yield with the resource taken into account), but I believe it was fixed in 1.09 or 1.51 - you should see definite changes in the positions of blue circles when you reveal resources now.

Revealing resources a tech or two ahead of being able to use them is consistent with the game's general method for them - I'd be surprised if it wasn't like that at some stage before release and changed for a reason; we'll have to see how this plays out. Given that you need a building to take advantage of them in FfH which you don't in vanilla, I doubt it'll be much of a problem.

 

[Kael]

How about making Blasting Powder visible with Alchemy? Currently this tech is kinda useless if Typhoid Mary has already been built.

Will do .

 

[Bad Player]

Why did you make the mana nodes visible right from the start instead of keeping the old (many versions ago) way of researching knowledge of the ether first?

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Finally Smelting has a use again. Something should probably still be added though since workshops still aren't a very good improvement especially right out of the box. I liked how civics were incorperated to improve farms perhaps something else could be down about workshops, maybe sacrafice the weak could add an additional +1 Hammer or Guilds could add +1 food.

I dunno ... in my first 0.16 game I built more Wrokshops than I all other FfH games combined. Their endgame yeild is exactly the same as mid-game hilltop mines: 1 3 in Grass, 0 4 in Plains. If a city need Hammers and there are no Hills nearby, Workshops are your answer. I would hesitate to alter any of the improvement functions until 0.16 gets more playtime. They seem to me to complement each other right now.

 

[Kael]

Why did you make the mana nodes visible right from the start instead of keeping the old (many versions ago) way of researching knowledge of the ether first?

Because building a city on a mana node is a waste of the node. So we blocked building on them. That caused their to be spaces that, for no apparent reason, the player just couldn't build a city on. So we displayed the resource so the player would have an indication of why he couldnt build there.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Why did you make the mana nodes visible right from the start instead of keeping the old (many versions ago) way of researching knowledge of the ether first?

I think it was so people wouldn't build cities and stuff on tiles that, unbeknownst to that player, were actually Mana Node tiles.

 

[ChaoticWanderer]

You really hate the Lanun, don't you?

nawwww dont hate them. but if their is a begaining tech called water craft. maybe ket it create smaller rowing vessels. then fish become known and fishing becomes visible. then the lanun could starter with water craft and see fish anyway.

 

[DieselBiscuit]

nawwww dont hate them. but if their is a begaining tech called water craft. maybe ket it create smaller rowing vessels. then fish become known and fishing becomes visible. then the lanun could starter with water craft and see fish anyway.

I wasn't very serious about you hating them, but this would lead the Lanun to have two starting techs, one civ-specific (Seafaring, to reveal Pearls and add ship speed) and one general (Fishing, to reveal general water resources) as the last one must be possible to get for all civs). Right now it fits thematically, as the Lanun are a nation of sailors, but it would require tuning of the tech tree which seems a bit clunky for such a small change.

 

[Zuul]

Because building a city on a mana node is a waste of the node. So we blocked building on them. That caused their to be spaces that, for no apparent reason, the player just couldn't build a city on. So we displayed the resource so the player would have an indication of why he couldnt build there.

Maybe move the mana randomly one plot away when you place a city on it?