[The Return to Nibiru] Diety turn <100 Science challenge

[elitetroops]

God of the Forge is currently bugged and as soon as anyone in the game picks it, everyone gets the bonus. Some AI always picks it, it seems, so in case you are fine waiting with this bonus until that happens, you can go for some other pantheon as well. With 30-40 cities culture from pastures would be massive.

You can find relics in goody huts. Luck needed to find it before meeting the first AI.

The key is getting to 1 tech/turn indeed. Getting writing asap is the most important. Tech order: pottery-writing. Meeting a couple of scientific city states early for free envoys would be massive. I didn't get any of those, have 2 in the game but met them later. Once you have writing you can start chopping campuses and then it's easy to count how many you need to 1 turn techs. In retrospect, I realized I should have acquired the Great Merchants earlier for free envoys. You can get a total of 6 envoys from merchants. If you get those in addition to 2 envoys from first meeting and complete one quest, that's +6 science/campus pretty early. Buying Hypatia and libraries goes without saying, so that makes 9 science/campus, add some adjacency bonus for 10-12, boosted by Natural Philosophy to 11-15. Not many are needed for classical/early medieval techs. Education with boost costs 195 science. Once you hit that and buy unis everywhere, boosted by Newton and Einstein, the rest is easy.

It's probably also a good idea to assign citizens to working the libraries as soon as the campus is built. You're in no hurry to build anything else. This is another thing I missed in my game.

 

[elitetroops]

Okay, done, T66 science victory. Here's Carl Sagan right before launching the last Mars module into orbit in 1400 BC:

Spoiler :

All other parts were slow built, the 1500 production engineer wasn't needed. Could have launched the same date without Sagan as well.

Not much going on in the late game. At Enlightenment my tech rate went above 2000 science/turn, no point doing any micro anymore after that. It was a great relief when I reached rocketry and could put all cities on building spaceports so that I didn't have to reassign builds every turn. Before that I had built some wonders, just to pick the most expensive build on the list, but this is dangerous. My visiting tourists started rising at a rate that would have ended the game prematurely. I gifted my wonder cities to Trajan, which lowered my tourism rate and raised his domestic tourists to take care of that. Obviously I still bought the cities back the last turn to raise my score.

I found one more Great Scientist who gives bulk science, 350/artifact in the city. After enlightenment I headed to the archeologist civic and acquired 2 artifacts. I still had some cheap techs, like masonry and iron working, so 700 should have been enough when I queued up 4 techs. However, I only got one. Immediately after that I launched the rainforest scientist with lots of techs queued up and got 7 techs. Are you sure about the 4 tech limit? Or is this also something that sometimes works and sometimes not, like science overflow sometimes getting lost?

Oxford gave me Telecommunications, that cost me one turn.

It is possible to get full techs from goody huts, unfortunately I didn't get any. Not sure if there's some turn limit when they start to appear. Maybe Gilgamesh would be best for this, if he can keep clearing barb camps and perhaps get some free techs from that?

I'm sure T60 or below is possible if you can start 1 turning techs earlier and use the Great Scientists more wisely. My spaceport was completed T44 with all the necessary Great People around to launch everything immediately, if I had had the techs.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Posting a replay seems redundant now as elitetroops came in way ahead! Ask them for replay.

please post the replay anyway

I'm trying to get a Horse Economy game as Scythia, yes it's insanely broken as well but without the trade bug and the overflow (my bpt isn't high still to 1 turn any tech allowing me to build up overflow) I don't think I will even finish under 200

edit: I don't suppose you can cheese the chopping by having millions of builders plant forests one turn then chop the next turn and then rotate until they run out of charges, or is that slower than building up overflow, which I am still kind of unsure how it works

 

[Dynamic]

I must admit, vans163, that when I first read about your t99 win I thought you were abusing the trading exploit as well. However, now when I see how powerful it is, I can tell you weren't.

Gold graph shows +40K gold/turn around turn 81 in his game, so it looks like some kind of trade abuse.

 

[IgrOK[SU]]

Spoiler :

-33 cities

How many cities you had by turn 15?

 

[elitetroops]

How many cities you had by turn 15?

My closest save was t16. At that time 9 cities. Bought 2 from Trajan, 2 from Roosevelt, bought 2 settlers in capital and 1 settler each in the cities I got from Teddy.

 

[vans163]

Gold graph shows +40K gold/turn around turn 81 in his game, so it looks like some kind of trade abuse.

This was a horseman stockpile getting big benned. You need an early clump of gold to buy up scientists otherwise you cannot eureka tech. Getting to Corps/Cavalry is too late. Also 40K gold/turn is not +40k gold per turn, I guess the game just calculate on that specific turn 40k gold was made.

Are you sure about the 4 tech limit? Or is this also something that sometimes works and sometimes not, like science overflow sometimes getting lost?.

From testing I found no real patterns other then it seems capped at 4 techs to me. I used the mountain scientist with 4 mountains, The most I could get was 3-4 techs. Using other scientists seemed to show the same patterns, sometimes even not getting 4 techs but 3, even though calculating the science should of been 4 techs. Maybe some more rigorous testing can reveal how it truly works.

About the relics, I found by the time I reached archeology it was endgame, I did not have enough culture. Also how does that archaeology work, I tried extracting some artifact sites having empty artifact mesuems but the archaeologist did not get anything.

 

[elitetroops]

About the relics, I found by the time I reached archeology it was endgame, I did not have enough culture. Also how does that archaeology work, I tried extracting some artifact sites having empty artifact mesuems but the archaeologist did not get anything.

With enough cities and monuments, I think the archeologists can be unlocked in time. But you should be better prepared than I was. Have a few theater districts built at the outskirts of your empire by the time you reveal the sites. Near tundra or desert seems best. Artifact sites disappear if the tile is already improved, so there won't be many in the middle of your empire. If there is indeed a limit of 4 techs, then you probably don't need 3 artifacts for maximum value. Also depends if those Great Scientists take eurekas into account or not. It all seems pretty random to me.

I'm not sure why your archeologists wouldn't find anything... Did you get a notification saying the site is empty? Usually you get to pick between 2 different artifacts.

 

[elitetroops]

I was thinking about how to speed it up further, and there is one more way: pillaging! With the policies that double yields (available at Military Training for improvements and at Mercenaries for districts) you receive 50 science from pillaging campuses, industrial zones, mines and lumbermills. Without the policy it's +25 science. This science can get you around the one tech/turn limit if it completes a tech. Early on you could also possibly get to 1 tech/turn faster if you set up a minefield in a city that you gift away before declaring war. By pillaging some mines every turn you can get techs that are almost completed.

Districts with all buildings can be pillaged 4 times. Probably even 4 times on the same turn if you have it surrounded by mounted units that are disbanded after pillaging. You can decide which tiles you give away by swapping tiles in the manage citizens screen. This way your units can start right next to the districts when you declare. Any techs up to the medieval era requires max 4 pillages, with eureka and doubling policy for pillage yield, to complete.

You could for example use regular teching to head towards spaceports through the upper part of the tech tree, while switching to techs from the lower part temporarily for pillaging. It would require quite a bit of planning and a lot of micro management, but I'm now starting to think that a T50 science victory could be possible.

I think there's also a promotion that let's you pillage in one move. Haven't tried it. Does it let you pillage a district 4 times in one turn with a horse unit? If it works, it would be huge! Gift one city with campus and IZ, pillage both the same turn for 400 science. Gift 2 cities, that's 800 science. Now we're already talking information era techs. And remember, you can have as many cities as you want with those districts... Okay, if this works, T50 is definitely doable. Probably even faster (T40?). I don't know how many promotions are needed to reach pillaging promo. This might be the biggest obstacle.

 

[trojan13]

I still had some cheap techs, like masonry and iron working, so 700 should have been enough when I queued up 4 techs. However, I only got one. Immediately after that I launched the rainforest scientist with lots of techs queued up and got 7 techs. Are you sure about the 4 tech limit? Or is this also something that sometimes works and sometimes not, like science overflow sometimes getting lost?

I was doing diety game and I found a relic on T14 on Standard speed / standard continent. I read your great T66 vic so I wanted to give a try.
I got infinite gold flow from T15, got first campus in place on T22 or so. I poped the first two GS but only got 4 techs plus 1 even I que'd up techs. It was really frustrating and I had no idea how it determines poping techs.
It's on T30, I have 43 techs left and have two more GS who gives bulbs and Oxford left. So I could've done on T63 if I am lucky but I really doubt GS (also artifacts) and Oxford works in my favors.

It was intense 15 turns but still I mad alot of mistake here and there. I had only 4 AIs in my continents but had no science CS in my continent so I guess it's medicore starting. I think it is more crucial to find out what condition triggers GS pop more techs up to its bulbs or just few techs. Plus, getting a relic and a nearby AI faster is the most important part. This getting relic very early or finding AI with a relic early is really luck dependent so I am afraid to give another shot for sub 60s.

In my opinion, the best starting is i) finding AI plus relic very early(sub T10) ii) big enough continents with alot of AI and bulb CS(especially Geneva would be great) and easy early quests iii) Gilgamesh or Gorgo, Gorgo is best for farming culture for earlier recorded history and enlightment, Gilgamesh has Ziggurat which gives 2 bulb and 1 culture - would save critical early turns when few bulbs needed to get writing or so.

 

[elitetroops]

I was doing diety game and I found a relic on T14 on Standard speed / standard continent. I read your great T66 vic so I wanted to give a try.
I got infinite gold flow from T15, got first campus in place on T22 or so. I poped the first two GS but only got 4 techs plus 1 even I que'd up techs. It was really frustrating and I had no idea how it determines poping techs.
It's on T30, I have 43 techs left and have two more GS who gives bulbs and Oxford left. So I could've done on T63 if I am lucky but I really doubt GS (also artifacts) and Oxford works in my favors.

Nice! You are a 3 techs ahead of me at T30, so you should be able to beat my date. My early game was very suboptimal, as I had no idea the end game would come that fast. I was more thinking about something like a T80 win in the early game.

You could always try pillaging to get it down below 60 turns. Getting 4 techs by pillaging shouldn't be too hard. So far I haven't found any limits to what cities the AI will accept, though sometimes they don't accept it as a gift, only accept if they pay something for it.

Ziggurats would be very good indeed. If he can get full techs from clearing barb camps, even better. According to the xml, it should be possible to get full techs from goody huts from turn 50 on, so not necessarily useful in the fastest possible game. Since you're playing continents, there should be some islands with goody huts and lots of unpopped huts on the other continent. I'd recommend sending out units and have them ready to pop them after T50. Not sure if they start giving full techs T50 or T51. Xml says "turn=50".

 

[mayhemster]

I must be missing the trick here. I've had 3 games with an early relic to start getting infinite gold and see what silly time is possible but couldn't get anything at all for them off my neighbours.

 

[elitetroops]

I must be missing the trick here. I've had 3 games with an early relic to start getting infinite gold and see what silly time is possible but couldn't get anything at all for them off my neighbours.

I don't remember now exactly how the first trades went, but usually to get everything they've got you do like this:

1. Put relic on your side and all their money on their side. They don't agree.
2. Ask "What would make this deal more equitable". It switches to relic+a lot of gold on your side, nothing on their side.
3. Ask "What would you give me for this". Now it puts up a deal with relic on your side and all their gold on their side, which they accept.

If the "what would you give me" button doesn't work in step 3, reduce the gold/turn on your side and try asking again until it does.

Sometimes in step 2 it might put up a deal with tons of stuff on your side and something small, like open borders on their side. In that case you can't ask "what would you give me for this", but should instead reduce the offer on your side until they don't agree and then ask them to make the deal more equitable.

 

[IgrOK[SU]]

// 2. Ask "What would make this deal more equitable". //

Sometimes they just answer "nothing".

 

[elitetroops]

// 2. Ask "What would make this deal more equitable". //

Sometimes they just answer "nothing".

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think you need to have as much to give them as you are asking for, or something like that. If you ask for 500 gpt and then ask to make it more equitable, they will put 500 gpt on your side of the table, which they only can do if you have that much to give them in trade. So I think the maximum amount you can get is the highest amount of whatever either one of you has available. I don't remember now what the very first trade in my game was, if I could get his full 16 gold/turn with the first trade, or if I had to trade for a smaller amount first to raise my own gpt.

In any case, if they say it can't be done in step 2, then lower the amount.

The exception is if they already have an artifact or great work. In that case they cannot buy your artifact, since they have no slots for it. When that happens they say they would never agree to such a deal as soon as you put your artifact on the table.

 

[stormtrooper412]

how do you get a relic anyway, from a goodie hut?

edit: not important, AIs value relics as 1 gpt.

How much are AI cities, I am offering 500 gpt and nothing doing? Do I need to go much much much higher?

 

[trojan13]

how do you get a relic anyway, from a goodie hut?

edit: not important, AIs value relics as 1 gpt.

How much are AI cities, I am offering 500 gpt and nothing doing? Do I need to go much much much higher?

Ask them what they want for city, then reduce gpt by 1 and ask again. You can buy city very cheap in this way iirc.

Relic is from hut or AI sometimes pop relic too so meeting AI plus you or AI having a relic is the starting position

 

[trojan13]

T62 Sci vic

Spoiler :

Few tips from my experience are i) it seems like GS popping techs don't count boosts(Eureka) so it's crucial to rush buy all GS then pop them early for reducing turns. but still not sure so need more test or data. ii) want to leave a note that I got enlightment on T41 so it take 25 or so turns since playing with infinite golds, iii) pillaging is good, I saved 3 turns from farming bulbs, basically, don't even need promotion, spam cav, pillage, delete then pillage, +1 movement card helps here. iv) I got Rocketry on T43 and time to build spaceport can be the bottleneck if aiming for sub 50, needed to stack overlfow from the beginning. Also, it's better to leave 3 chop on the spaceport city so that 2 GP + 3 chop to make all proj done on the turn tech finished.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Ask them what they want for city, then reduce gpt by 1 and ask again. You can buy city very cheap in this way iirc.

Relic is from hut or AI sometimes pop relic too so meeting AI plus you or AI having a relic is the starting position

yeah I've seen that you kind of need to buy a city at a high price, once you've built up your imaginary economy, to give the AI a high gpt to start with. Then you can exploit the trade more efficiently, otherwise your clicking on stuff takes forever. However, if you get involved in a war with your economic partner, it's all wasted, how do you avoid that?

Also, can you screenshot your capital, I'm curious to see the setup which maximizes production. I managed to top out at near 200, but spaceport still took 12 turns since I didn't have anything to chop

I am proud of having a T112 win on my first attempt of this madness. I only had 19 cities because I couldn't be arsed to go all out. But I think you can get 19 cities the "normal way" as well, which I guess is a plus

 

[elitetroops]

Also, can you screenshot your capital, I'm curious to see the setup which maximizes production. I managed to top out at near 200, but spaceport still took 12 turns since I didn't have anything to chop

My spaceport city was targeted by 14 Industrial Zones. No Toronto, I just packed the area with cities and placed industrial zones within 6 tiles of the target city. In addition I had a huge amount of trade routes and Ruhr Valley (built by 2 Great Engineers) for >250 production/turn.

Once I hit Rocketry my spaceport was built in 2 turns without chops. The trick is to build up overflow prior to researching Rocketry. I hadn't researched Guilds yet, so I was building heavy chariots the last few turns before Rocketry. If you build a heavy chariot with 100% production bonus at 200 production/turn, that's 335 overflow into the next build. Build a heavy chariot next turn as well, overflow goes up to 670. Build a few more and you have enough overflow to build a space port in 1 turn. Actually, overflow will be even greater than that due to the God of the Forge bug. If you build a heavy chariot at 200 production/turn, overflow is closer to 500 and you only need 4 turns to build up enough overflow to 1 turn the spaceport.

To deal with unsuspected wars, you have to spread the risk. Make sure you have lots of income from all the AI, then it doesn't matter if one of them cuts the deals.