The Rites of Oghma crapshoot

Well, I'VE complained about it before, but I guess that wasn't enough. :) I guess most players don't bother building it, given the uncertain return on the investment, so people don't feel the need to complain about a feature they seldom if ever use.

well i don't know about you, but i am no one.

i was thinking what if it spawned an item, actually a handful of them, at the location of the rites of oghma creation, that units, probably adepts, could then pick up, carry to a location and use to create the mana node in question. just a thought. then you are garaunteed to get something, they will be in a useable area, and more importantly don't screw up your existing landscape.

and if you required more incentive, the little mana node seeds could maybe grant bonuses to spells when carried, so you diddn;t neccessarily have to plant them.

like i said, just a thought.
 
I'd say, make it repeatable, make it create one new node at random in the world, and make it cheap. It would make the Towers victory more doable (though it is better since dispel). And it might be interesting to see magical races building it over and over making the world a more magical place for everybody!

If that still doesn't provide enough motivation, have it create some percentage of the nodes in the builder's territory, and the rest at random.
 
It should either work like Genesis and only give the casting empire new Mana (based on map size or number of cities in the empire or both) or it should guarantee that a certain number of those mana will appear inside your borders.

I agree completely with this ... there should be some incentive to building it ... having nodes only appear in the building empire makes more sense than just doing it for the good of the world ...

otherwise maybe a big diplomacy bonus for building it +4 or +8 ...

it is kind of useless in a MP game ... most rituals are ... with the Illians as an exception, of course ...
 
It really does not make sense to complete a ritual that can benefit your opponents more than you. I used to build the ritual when playing the Amurites, but when I found out that very few new nodes came under my influence, I had stopped building it.

Also, imagine a not so unlikely situation, that there are the Shaeim and Amurites in the game. You play Amurites, you build the rites and you discover that Shaeim got 75% of the nodes created!! OK, you are toast!

I think Oghma should be more inclined to favor the civilization that actually completed the rites, instead of radomly distributing nodes all over the world.
 
No axing rites. Make it infinitely usable. When the world is full of mana crystals, you really can afford to build farms over them near cities. Or play Hyborem who needs no stinking tiles. Better yet, build a node and then found a city over it.

But if it cannot be done infinitely, make it spawn crystals in the builder's land only.
 
I would actually prefer it somehow distribute them more evenly. And possibly more based on # of mana nodes in the world, than a set number per size... maybe with those old numbers as minimums incase a game somehow spawned way too few.

This way, its reward would be relive to your territory size.

But I imagine that would be incredibly difficult, especially without OOSing mp.


Given not being able to do that, a % being spesificaly in the users are would be a good idea...
 
Have it spawn 6 mana nodes, 2 guaranteed to be in your territory, 4 randomly.

That retains it being a sort of gamble, in that your enemy MIGHT get more than you, but the gamble is still weighted towards the building civilization getting something out of it, even if it goes bad.

Then make it repeatable.
 
The problem with Rites of Oghma is that it doesn't spawn nodes anywhere that has an improvement. I think it's a good idea to have the ritual not spawn nodes anywhere that has a resource, but I'd be very willing to lose a mine or a farm in exchange for another mana node.

Humans improve more land than the AI does, so humans get less benefit from this ritual.

Changing Rites of Oghma to spawn nodes where there are improvements would fix this issue.
 
In addition to it's normal effects, it could spawn a Metamagic node in your palace as a bribe for players to build it.
 
Improvements are not an issue in my experience. On the other hand, ancient forest whore elves get banged in the ass. They don't spawn under features.
 
The problem with Rites of Oghma is that it doesn't spawn nodes anywhere that has an improvement. I think it's a good idea to have the ritual not spawn nodes anywhere that has a resource, but I'd be very willing to lose a mine or a farm in exchange for another mana node.

Humans improve more land than the AI does, so humans get less benefit from this ritual.

Changing Rites of Oghma to spawn nodes where there are improvements would fix this issue.

RoO already ignores improvements. The only useable tiles which seem immune from node placement are cities, unique features, and resources. nothing stops them from popping up right under your farms, mines or fully developed towns, and yet still you can get completely hosed when it comes to distribution.

A question that occured to me. has anyone ever had their earth mana mojo going with a mine and a mana node in the same tile? Seems like it would be bad to have a vein of gold or something discovered in a tile that already has a raw mana node on it? i've never seen it happen, but i notice the AI rarely makes use of nodes, i figure it should have by now.

I rather like a free meta magic source in the city where the ritual was performed. it is a generic boost to all spells if i remember correctly, so useful to all, if not what was desired.
 
I like the idea of extra mana for your castle, and a percentage of mana nodes in your territory, And maybe the Oghma promotion for units that pass though the city.

Oghma promotion, small (5-10%) buff for summons, lower magic resistance to spells.
 
I don't mind the crap shoot aspect but it is one of the more pointless Wonder/Rites in game. Currently, Getting the Master of Magic victory is a joke. It is far and away the easiest to win with- and that is even without exploiting the Dispel spell.

If Kael and Co. removed the cheap mechanic of allowing players to dispel nodes that have already been used to secure a specific tower (by say, making sure that a Tower Of Mastery can't be built unless you OWN a single node of every type on top of all 4 minor towers) then Rite of Ogma would suddenly become a worthwhile endeavor.

Take it a step further. Under those guidelines, make it so manas acquired by trade were likewise not counted towards Tower of Mastery. Then, set up Rite of O to either create nodes all in your borders or a fixed % of said nodes, and then you would not only make it more relevant but also increase the difficulty of the victory in comparison to the others.

I am out of breath.
 
well i don't know about you, but i am no one.

i was thinking what if it spawned an item, actually a handful of them, at the location of the rites of oghma creation, that units, probably adepts, could then pick up, carry to a location and use to create the mana node in question. just a thought. then you are garaunteed to get something, they will be in a useable area, and more importantly don't screw up your existing landscape.

and if you required more incentive, the little mana node seeds could maybe grant bonuses to spells when carried, so you diddn;t neccessarily have to plant them.

like i said, just a thought.

Actually, in all fairness, Kael does check these boards regularly and has been open to ideas, suggestions, complaints, criticisms. A few of my (admittedly minor) suggestions have made it into the mod, so I can't really complain.

The Rites of Oghma has been the same for a long time now, which is why it seems to me that Kael is content with it as is. A bit surprising, at least to me, since one of the criteria for having something in the mod is that it be fun, and I think very few FfH players consider RoO fun in its present form. Also, from a lore perspective, it seems to me that if you complete an expensive and lengthy ritual to a deity, that deity would reward you rather than everybody else in the world.

I do like the idea that some others have posted of having it work like Genesis, only within your borders. Magister proposed having no limit on how many times it could be used -- I'd modify that and instead suggest making it a "National Ritual," like a National Wonder, so each civ could use it once to generate new mana nodes within its borders.
 
I don't mind the crap shoot aspect but it is one of the more pointless Wonder/Rites in game. Currently, Getting the Master of Magic victory is a joke. It is far and away the easiest to win with- and that is even without exploiting the Dispel spell.

If Kael and Co. removed the cheap mechanic of allowing players to dispel nodes that have already been used to secure a specific tower (by say, making sure that a Tower Of Mastery can't be built unless you OWN a single node of every type on top of all 4 minor towers) then Rite of Ogma would suddenly become a worthwhile endeavor.

Take it a step further. Under those guidelines, make it so manas acquired by trade were likewise not counted towards Tower of Mastery. Then, set up Rite of O to either create nodes all in your borders or a fixed % of said nodes, and then you would not only make it more relevant but also increase the difficulty of the victory in comparison to the others.

I am out of breath.

Its not an exploit.
Kael has introduced Metamagic 2 explicitly to make this kind of victory easier and to make the nodes really valuable points of interest instead just a sidenote. (Kael gave his assesment on the quality of spells from his design perspective. And Dispell Magic was way up there i believe. So stopping to call it broken might be a nice idea to come to a reasonable discussion rather then crying foul all the time... :()
Also what you say only holds true on large and huge maps at gamespeeds normal and slower.
On normal size and below (the smaller it gets the harder its relatively to the other options and! in terms of direct difficulty.) its far from the easiest.
And in the time where you really needed any node it was borderline impossible to achieve this kind of victory without deliberately delaying another kind of victory-condition like domination.

But if you care to look around in the strategy-subforums a bit you'll likely notice that many experienced players rather aim for military victories and achieve them (in the higher difficulties) in a number of turns where the builder-victories are a burden to get at best and impossible at worst. (around Turn 200 - 300 normal speed is nigh impossible - rather hard to do by any of the builder victories but not seldomly seen by the military ones...)
The Altar is not that much harder if you know what you are doing (its a bit harder to set up well. But not really that much harder in terms of resources and it uses similar techs... Only theocracy is really mandatory. And basically anyone has access to that civic later in the game.
Also the potential Drawback of Wars is far less severe. Lets see what the AI will do once its really worked...)
Culture is similar in that the effort is doable. But there the problem is combination of needed planning basically right from the start and much more focus needed to achieve. But its far easier than it looks on first impression.

I'm much more fond of the builder-style victories myself. But there is no real problem with those by a wide margin.
Take multiplayer as a reference here (if with quite many flaws, i must admit). There it hardly ever seems to be achieved by a builder route.
The game is actually supposed to be finished not by a time victory but by one of the conditions.
And given that at least some players actually wrap up games the team accomplished the goal of making them interesting enough. Make them harder and barely anyone will ever see them through. Thats hardly what they should be designed for imo. But that's just my 2 €Cents...

So a big no for that idea from my part.


In terms of the ritual a combination of the following might bring it up to interest.

either / and:

a) put it on an earlier tech
b) make it cheaper
c) make it repeatable
d) make it a "national" ritual instead of a world one. So in late-game the big civs standing all profit from it at a time in gameplay where its most "needed". (and i heard that the AI is rather fond of rituals now. So that shouldn't be to much of a concern.)


Otherwise its not worth the spot i must agree (rather put something else interesting in there. Late-game-wonders and Rituals are the 2 things i still think the mod is a bit thin on really...).

Cutting it currently seems a real option sadly, as cool as the concept sounds in itself on paper. I strongly doubt there are no better ideas in the pipeline worth taking its place...
 
Actually, I only play Standard maps and it is still far and away the easiest. As for it being an exploit, I didn't mean it was an exploit, only that when it is exploited, it makes things even more ridiculous. Oh well, the Rite is obsolete when I play but then again that only matters to me. If it gets a tweak, great, if not, meh.
 
I could get behind it being a National Ritual that was a boon for you only, but each civ could get thier own. Might bring Magic into it's own lategame as opposed to the superunits having so much of an impact, and give a chance for mana-poor bordered civs to still have some at the endgame.
 
Thats in your experience then. Many players might disagree. (I'm taking their point more for the sake of representation to not get into the full heat which might really flare up when someone gets here and calls you inexperienced or somesuch. ;)
Since usually I'm rather fond of wrapping up games the builder-style (since i don't play very much with only victory in mind but do like to finish my games instead of dropping out when the outcome is certain.). And overall am rather on "your side of the argument")

But rest assured that you would come into heated arguments about that point very fast if you want to have it set that generally without clearly restricting it to your experience.

And if raw turns come into play as points of proof its hard to argue with those. From a powerplayers perspective who aims for fast and efficient victories the military ones seem to be far easier by results...

You just can't beat warriors with copper with any of the builder victories. Many players seem very fond of this and Warriors are one of the most powerful units in the game. They where completely over the top when they could use iron. But still even with copper at times it seems ridiculous what can be gained out of them.

And given later techs just got more expensive and earlier ones even cheaper, the power of the earlier units has even be extended.

Don't get me wrong though.
I don't think your point is unreasonable. I just think that a vast majority of the community (even including the team + in terms of the suggestion itself me) might vastly dislike your suggestion in comparison to the status quo.
And changing the game for the sake of mechanics and balance while ignoring gameplay and fun would do the game hardly any good (imo again of course. ;)).

So please consider it as a possibility that its a blessing rather than a curse that this victory seems so easy and the possible sacrifice of the Rites the smaller ill of the two.
 
it is a pretty easy victory though ... I usually forgoe it in liu of a bigger challange ... though, then comes the issue of personal style and prefference ... I like long drawn out games where I can research allo the techs and build every unit ... if you keep a large enough unimproved/unsettles area the AI will start producing advanced units too ... I like that the ToM victory is FFH2's parallel to the spaceship .... I just wish there was a reason to build it without the condition enabled ... it could provide a boost for a civ's mages ... summoner, arcane, twincast, spellstaves, even unto 4 of each type of mana (the tower would have to become a rite and be more expensive to build but mastery is mastery), any major mage boost really ...

and the Idea of a metamagic bonus is a supperior Idea ...

and I again throw my humble support behind the idea of making the RoO only revealo those hidden nodes in the builders territory ...
 
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