The Second Expansion Set - Fact or Fantasy?

[T.A JONES]

Now that you have said that, I think we can agree on enhancing the Modern Age (especially) as a goal! Space cities are kind of ridiculous, I think, as are underwater colonies as somebody mentioned earlier--sure, we have some underwater bases, subs, etc., but not hundreds of thousands of people beneath the waves.

I agree those Space cities are a no no, but have em under sea? sure! One wonder that lets you do the trick and not repeat it. Mybe a great engineer colonizes the first and only underwater research colony which bangs out twice the amount of beakers every turn and grows at a rate determined by the amount of a few specific great people only allowed to colinize it. Drop em of in a sub and you get specific bonuses related to that great persons traits-(explorer scientist engineer)mybe expanding the size of the colony in wide spread areas?

I would like to see an automobiles technology that increases the movement along roads (again), and a similar tech for rails. Also, modern armor and mech infantry should move at least 3 squares, if not 4. Upping the movement of some Industrial Age units would be nice as well.

I like the idea of a monorail but the whole focus on movement points is kinda dull man. Focus should be on advanment of the economy and production capacity to gear up towards greater costing weapons. If you are balls out powerful you deserve to see where it can take you. AGain meeting the China of the world near end game (you being USA) is when you will face off with compition with similarly powerful weapons. Most of the other CIvs will haven fallen by the wayside like a real life future scenario

And I never said the game should flat end at the Industrial or Modern era...but I disagree with things like walking battle-mechs and massive laser-shooting armies and other "scifi" style technologies.

(to lazy repeat)You see the game as a world history replay, others want more freedom to chart there own path in the context of what can occure. (look to the way of the future )
For example looking from one angle, had the historical Civ you are curtailing made the power moves you as leader might acheive they could have powered future innovations to the level of what you call Sci-Fi, or Fantasy. It sounds just like back when others said the same about airplanes, trains and space shuttles, subs etc

Keep it real--railguns, fusion, trimarans, maybe more kinds of aircraft (like dive bombers that can be stationed on warships, or transport helicopters that can drop off infantry), cruise missiles, tactical nukes that can be loaded onto nuclear submarines, etc.

You don't no whats "real"(real-ly possible) to begin with. How are you to judge whats "keeping it real" If a society has enough brains, capital resources or time Anything is possible. We talk about adding more time but not all players will need it. In a game of Civ you control how fast you grow and more important, your set the pace for the tech flow . Your not curtailing to any specific order of real historic events that may have crippled development and reaserch capital (pace) many times.

These members ideas are not talking fantasy as you referred, but a change from a narrow scope to a broader range of reality.

Regarding the Nuclear subs along with the tactical nukes to pimp em out with, I agree its a great idea. Like the patriot missle CIv3 proved these worked beatifully in adding varity I was expecting them it be in CIv4 Warlords but they were left out to my dismay.

There are plenty of currently-existing technologies that can be fit into the Modern Age; we don't need to add some ill-contrived future era to the game as well when we are ignoring so much that can be implemented and still keep a historic/contemporary flavor.

Why call radical improvments Fake? Its perfactly natural for are technolgy to improve drastically over time. Where have you been bro?. I heard you agree with Kushluk. He suggested around a century extension, isn't it safe to say a few of what you call 'ill contirved' inventions might come along in that time?(flash back to 1900)

 

[Kushluk]

Now that you have said that, I think we can agree on enhancing the Modern Age (especially) as a goal! Space cities are kind of ridiculous, I think, as are underwater colonies as somebody mentioned earlier--sure, we have some underwater bases, subs, etc., but not hundreds of thousands of people beneath the waves.

I would like to see an automobiles technology that increases the movement along roads (again), and a similar tech for rails. Also, modern armor and mech infantry should move at least 3 squares, if not 4. Upping the movement of some Industrial Age units would be nice as well.

Second what you have said about Civics--that was the feature from SMAC I wanted to see in Civ3...and it wasn't there. I'm glad it got into Civ4.

And I never said the game should flat end at the Industrial or Modern era...but I disagree with things like walking battle-mechs and massive laser-shooting armies and other "scifi" style technologies. Keep it real--railguns, fusion, trimarans, maybe more kinds of aircraft (like dive bombers that can be stationed on warships, or transport helicopters that can drop off infantry), cruise missiles, tactical nukes that can be loaded onto nuclear submarines, etc. There are plenty of currently-existing technologies that can be fit into the Modern Age; we don't need to add some ill-contrived future era to the game as well when we are ignoring so much that can be implemented and still keep a historic/contemporary flavor.

I agree with almost eveything you say. (Imagine that on an internet MSG board). Yes Space Cities and Underwater Cities seem absurd unless it is the FAR future which cant be even guessed at (so what is the point). Yes there are a number of obvious "next step" technologies like Fusion, Railguns, new and better kinds of Missles, Bullet resistant battle Armour, etc. By suggesting it go to the near future I don't mean to say that we should go crazy with the techs. It's possible that only a few hardcore Scientific techs go into the last 100 years between 2000-2100, and a lot of social/economic techs in between.

The modern age really kinda needs an overhaul. And this is the major point of agreement. I mean, why can't I friggen plant corn wherever I want? Especially after I have technologies like Biology? Automobiles definately have to be there as they are obviously important. The internet need to be a better wonder/project than it now is. In the current game, if you are building the internet you probably already have a tech lead or are on par, and thus you are wasting huge resources. Navies need to actually be made usefull, that goes for the Reaissance and above, Navies have always moved way faster in history than Footslogging until the era of Flight/Autos. This needs to be reflected in play.

Anyway, I am wasting space with this reply I agree. There are a lot of repairs to be made. I love the ancient era and the stone agey era but the modern part needs a lot of modification.

 

[Kushluk]

I agree those Space cities are a no no, but have em under sea? sure! . . . .

Where have you been bro?. I heard you agree with Kushluk. He suggested around a century extension, isn't it safe to say a few of what you call 'ill contirved' inventions might come along in that time?(flash back to 1900). . .

I'd like to see some way to collect resources from the sea, which we do now (food, oil). People living under the sea dosen't seem practical now or for a very long time in the future. Gleaning resources from the sea for food seems almost a certainty though. Not sure how this would be set up in game.

As far as break-out inventions go I really don't know. We dont seem to be on the verge of any at the moment, other than Invisibility int he next 40 years or so. (Take a search for it on the net, apparently since light is a wave it can be more or less deflected, very interesting stuff. This has been in the news lately). Though I think real Sci-Fi stuff like making interstellar space ships, being able to bend time and space and so on would require a politically unified society to be able to have the resources to merely research the needed tech. Again, this means the far future (or never). So I think an extra 100 or 75 or even just 50 years is manageable and won't make the game too crazy.

I forget who said it, but it can be an option in a normal game to end the game now (2006..9 whatever) or end it at whatever other date.

 

[chopstyx]

I do think the next expansion will be diplomacy, politics & religion based rather than more war.

Belief in these various religions has been the cause of most wars in human history, but in Civ I think only Isabella really goes to war over religion. So perhaps this expansion will push that to the forefront, somehow making it tempting for human players to go to war over religion alone. It'll be interesting to see.

The automobile tech is a good idea, and yes, planting crops & forests should be implented too. How about having to build things like oil pipelines, which can then be destroyed to cut of oil to parts of the world?

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Aquaculture farms could do the job.
Perhaps coming with a mid-late tech allowing to do ostreiculture, conchyliculture, ... in coastal sea tiles.
The ways it goes, I will buy the next exp the eyes closed !!!

 

[Antilogic]

I'd like to see some way to collect resources from the sea, which we do now (food, oil). People living under the sea dosen't seem practical now or for a very long time in the future. Gleaning resources from the sea for food seems almost a certainty though. Not sure how this would be set up in game.

As far as break-out inventions go I really don't know. We dont seem to be on the verge of any at the moment, other than Invisibility int he next 40 years or so. (Take a search for it on the net, apparently since light is a wave it can be more or less deflected, very interesting stuff. This has been in the news lately). Though I think real Sci-Fi stuff like making interstellar space ships, being able to bend time and space and so on would require a politically unified society to be able to have the resources to merely research the needed tech. Again, this means the far future (or never). So I think an extra 100 or 75 or even just 50 years is manageable and won't make the game too crazy.

I forget who said it, but it can be an option in a normal game to end the game now (2006..9 whatever) or end it at whatever other date.

Have you read about the light cloak? It essentially made of a fabric that bends light around your body, causing it to look like you can see through the person. However, it's not perfect, as I think you can still see ripples and the outline. I haven't read about this in awhile, though, so it may have improved.

It's not so much the time limit in the game I'm concerned about--you can advance humanity faster or slower, if you so desire. What I want to see, though, is a restriction on the Scifi-futuristic stuff and an expansion on the Modern Age, which is incredibly underrepresented in terms of technology and capacity. Even the Industrial Age has been on the receiving end of some shafting...

How about reviving the Manufacturing Plant for a greater production boost in the Modern Age? Or is this already there and I just never get the time to build it? I think the Space Race to Alpha Centauri and the Space Elevator are enough...

 

[Julian Delphiki]

and trimarans (yes, it's true!).

Sorry, I might have missed this, could you clarify? What do you mean with trimarans or was it just a joke that i didnt get right away? Afaik its a boat with three hulls .

 

[Antilogic]

That's right--there are trimaran prototype ships in existence today. Some navies are looking into using trimarans armed with railguns and cruise missiles to expand their navies in another decade or so. The "classic" style warship may be going obsolete in favor of faster trimarans. The thing is, they might--I don't know if it's confirmed yet.

I'm just emphasizing the use of currently existing technology in new Civ expansions than some random super-futuristic age. I'd rather see stuff like dive bombers, cruise missiles, nuclear submarines, etc. implemented. And more civilizations--you have to get at least 10 or more new civilizations and maybe 20 or more new leaders. I would buy the expansion if the only benefit was just that--a bunch of new professionally-designed graphics for new civs and leaders.

Not that I am attacking any of the fine graphics modders on this forum board--they are far better than myself when it comes to making graphics--it's just that I want to see some more leaders that aren't just the originals reskinned in the game.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

That's right--there are trimaran prototype ships in existence today. Some navies are looking into using trimarans armed with railguns and cruise missiles to expand their navies in another decade or so. The "classic" style warship may be going obsolete in favor of faster trimarans. The thing is, they might--I don't know if it's confirmed yet.

Not that I am attacking any of the fine graphics modders on this forum board--they are far better than myself when it comes to making graphics--it's just that I want to see some more leaders that aren't just the originals reskinned in the game.

Ah, trimarans as warboats. I think navies (and space) are gonna be the military branches that will get most of focus in the future. Projection of power is the key here. (I dont count "war" on "terror" as war. Alexanders phony wars on civ scare me more).

Within the mods i've played i actually liked more static leaderheads that were not modifications of originals. If i understood correcly there is some lack with adequate tools, but the main reason is probably time and skill it needs. I've played my time within 3D/modelling and could _probably come around within decent leader model if i spent next month or something like doing it.. without playing civ! So its not gonna happen .

To not to get completely OT, i hope i can do some peacemongering with next expansion .

 

[T.A JONES]

I'd like to see some way to collect resources from the sea, which we do now (food, oil). People living under the sea dosen't seem practical now or for a very long time in the future. Gleaning resources from the sea for food seems almost a certainty though. Not sure how this would be set up in game.

Hey you might be right but heres my angle, Global warming. Theres no incentive right now to spend those dollers. Something has to change in the next 20- 30 years.
The research taking from studying the ocean may double when we set up the kind of test possible where actual systems are situated in the heart of the subject. Also less wasted money on renting Vessels and transporting clumsy instruments from shore will initself be a cost savings over the time we play with

'Closer' Study of ocean temp, water levels, and currents along with eco diversity will indicate some tell tale sign of whats in store for are economy. When it seem affordable, why not shuttle scientists to undersea bases to conduct these tests and others on sizmic activitys (tidal wave) and hurricane reasearch. Heck it might even get affordable if another Katrina comes along (guess how much that cost)

Plus theres bragging rights! this asssures American envolvment. I thought I'd try in predict what route the Pedia discript might take when they finnaly do impliment undersea living on of the days

 

[T.A JONES]

Have you read about the light cloak? It essentially made of a fabric that bends light around your body, causing it to look like you can see through the person. However, it's not perfect, as I think you can still see ripples and the outline. I haven't read about this in awhile, though, so it may have improved.

Oh your talking about the predator costume Ya I actual still rember a clip from the news, dam that must have ten years ago by now . Anyway US soldiers reflected that same cool vapour apearence are Governor Hunting Hero had sported on his trip to earth. To bad it wasn't ready for Veitnam.

To sum up, Id rather the ancient eras are expanded. Im not a fan of Sci Fi. I like the idea of progress being available to those who have earned it (as stated in above posts)

 

[T.A JONES]

I am somewhat shocked at the allegation that I don't know what's possible. I'm an engineer, and modern technology is my trade and profession

So ya use modern tech (translation=know how) in your trade!? Congrats man, My boss still has us sweating on typerwriters! lol

OH boy when my bro was a bus boy he called himself a table technician and design consultant, much its the Same thing. Engineer is a loose term. I don't see how it has anything to do with your remarks being justifiable It comes of sounding rather elitist but In a childish sort of way ;

Events that are ever occuring randomly are what set off new paths of innovation. If oil wells dry up say good bye to big honken tanks say hellow to new warmachines forced to run off another source. Think of the money that gets diverted to these new areas of " SUPER " "SCI FI" 'know how'
If are wells dried up or a new breakthrough was made in alternative directions, huge leaps in advancment would follow this cash from former oil industry and subsiduries. If the oil stock remains plentyful the money stays on better usage and new ways of extracting.

I'm just emphasizing the use of currently existing technology in new Civ expansions than some random super-futuristic age.

My emphasise is more freedom in the context of what can occure. If your economy and War machine are in sync and you can power up the techtree. WHo really thinks the game ends with enough knowledge to colinize another planet anyway? THe designer just got lazy in the way of filling the supporting techs around the space parts
That would mean making "Super' units that would normally be seeing action around the time we were flying out of the solar system. No the piles of advanced armour (fuel sucking tanks) arn't really what I had in mind as advanced weopons during our planet colinizing days lol

Even on todays timeline what you call Sci-FI the military is already on the hunt for in Nano bots. But according to you, the inventons that I propose come near the end are a "random super-futuristic age" well what do you call interplanatery party capsules that are built before that???

I'm going to keep posting on what I think is "really possible"

What, you mean like a space ladder? and trip to colinize some other planet?
oh wait thats already in the game
Come on man lets give the historic context thing a break Ok.

 

[T.A JONES]

Heres some tech splatter in regards to what possibilties are out there. Its without direct links to any one path so to stir your imagination um, unless you have the pedia

Supportin the the lead up, comes a heavy emphisis on pushing back early modern know how into post industrious era. 'CLICK HERE'

You see now what Im talkin bout. Ive never made it all the way up that tech tree yet so Im not sure how the 80 or so mechs fare out. Im always using weapons of near future when I win by space race or culture (notice the Space parts are spread out further down the line to make the space race feel more realistic an legit compared to Civ4). You need a real hard swing to make that final landing into the' SUPER RANDOM 'future. But its there if your good enough or want to try a bigger enough map/big economy, ether way you have to make the most of all your cities. The AI is excellant at building extra improvments in this mod and turn times are ziltch see for yourself (Uses 2005 AI-turn reducing technolgies)

 

[player1 fanatic]

The whole "giant death robots" idea (aka mechs) is really silly one.

While they look cool in movies, these kind of toys are really inpractical in battlefield (too large, with complex and slow moving mechanisms, etc...), so there is less then 5% chance that something like that ever gets used in wars of future.

Adding something like that in game based on realistic technology just looks silly (yes CTP, I am talking about you!)

 

[T.A JONES]

The whole "giant death robots" idea (aka mechs) is really silly one.

While they look cool in movies, these kind of toys are really inpractical in battlefield (too large, with complex and slow moving mechanisms, etc...), so there is less then 5% chance that something like that ever gets used in wars of future.

Adding something like that in game based on realistic technology just looks silly (yes CTP, I am talking about you!)

Remember the game can't focus on modern innovations it has to expand equally in all eras. Thats why Balancer is 770 turns instead of 540. All the other eras are filled in with the same care to extras as the last stage (1000 units, impr ,wond, altogther) You actually play more in the usual historical periods with more detail to all periods of warfare ,Example look how knights are treated in the same way post modenr weopns are. the emphasis on Real future Techs is mimicked in all ages with variety.You should see Tanks and early sword and musket troops.
OK point is Civ4 needs to up it standards in varity and support the space race tech with matching units of the erea.

Why? cuz Look at the way Balancer approached the last age. Its only a bonus for those who excelled during those early ages(And for the one or two AI Civs that went the distance with you mybe as your best friend most the way!!) To be able to chart your own destiny in the end(with a fully complete Pedia backing you up ever step of the way-In The best format CIv3 style


Now to scrutinize this thing on mechs you said (kidding)
I guess CTP could aslo refer to me I suggested some mechs to. Only Giant death robot is just a funny thing I picked up here.
Curious what weopons do you think are practical when we are taxiing people to other planets... tanks? and lots of um. Thats what you get for your money, same ol tank in Civ4's Universal exploration days )
Heres the a tiny sample of what I meant when you read my post. Balancer has for free...
Hover Light Model
BIG Honkin Tank 'nuclear deturrent'
Laser Inf
New Tank
Hover Tank
Packrat
Swift


Sorry no GAINT DEATH ROBOT!!!!!! Shucks!
Ok now you Can you see the differance! All the others cool post modern weapons are only found in the Mod exclusive to Balancer. Many have tried to get them released on this site but the artist gave sole permision to the designer. Many Mechs from my source(Ripptide) were left out of the Balancer. Still Civ4 could gets ideas from this guy hes a great artist
I can list about 100 more(hey its a flavourful mod!, only around 20 are considered to mech for my liking

 

[wilboman]

Never used spies (religion city revealing 4 teh win). Always been more of a city-nuking, modern armour-hoarding megalomaniac smash-em-all leader, myself. When I'm not turtling.

Well, new civs are kind of a no-brainer, I guess. An expansion without new civs would be very weird. I just hope they get someone to read the tech quotes again (Leonard Nemoy, I'm looking at YOU. I know you're using your Vulcan powers to lurk here. Do it for free. For the fans.)

 

[T.A JONES]

Wow, I must say, what a presentation! It came complete with power point and lil clicky things and even a 'Q n' A' period. Only 2000 people saw this I can only hope one was from Fireaxis.

Heres hoping they bring us a modern age backed with some authenticity and exictment around the space race.

On the topic of Future tech additions to the expansion.....As we have demonstrated with the Preditor suit being a excellant example, some are to quick to dismiss a movie sounding peice of 'know how' as Sc-iFi, but then go on to tout the latest (Arnold avoiding ) cloaking devices in test phase with the military
I think baiting a post is a great necessity for proving a point, even if its against the surgeon generals warnings.

Hopefully we all come out the wiser.(Fireaxis)

 

[Antilogic]

Do you think I was advocating adding that cloak into the game? Nope...

Despite what appears to be a personal beef with me, we still agree that a modern age needs boosting. That's enough for me.

 

[T.A JONES]

Wheres the beef ? I don't see any. Your siggy is kinda funny so I quoted it. Im presuming you did agree with my show and the points it raised. Thanks!

Balancer Reloaded is killer format for any X pak, be it on Civ3 or 4. This was a cool oppurtunty to shed some light on that fact and further explain the ideal model of improvment for the single most dreaded era in the game.

Take care , n till next time.

T.A

 

[chopstyx]

Getting away from the future tech debate for a moment, I think that improvements to the current game mechanics should include:

Trading with other civs:
No 'redded' out technologies / deals / resources. EVERYTHING should have a price no matter how much the other civ hates you. Even if the civilisation isn't going to give it to you I still don't like the fact that it's red meaning you can't even offer something. Cyrus won't give you Military Tradition? Not even for every city in your civilisation apart from your capital? It's ridiculous. (exageratted but you get my point)

I'd also like to see the civilization border system improved. Don't get me wrong, it works VERY well at the moment, but I think there should be some tweaks, like:

1) If you're on an island or area of land you should be able to claim that area as your own even if your cultural borders don't quite cover all of it. Isn't it annoying when you have coverd most of an island but the AI settles on the one square that isn't covered? At around 95% coverage of an area of land you should be able to declare the area 'Persia' or whatever despite having the odd square not in your borders.

2) In modern times there should be a point where borders are set in stone. When was the last time we saw a border shift in the 20th century because of culture? If there are areas like that in the later game then perhaps they should become 'disputed land' or something? (Obviously wars would still change borders though)