The Song of the Moon

As someone who is trying to shepherd my own creation through this process, hopefully successfully but I have moments of doubt, I think the best advice is to follow your own passion and methodology. Personally, I agree with your approach of starting from top-down, but that's the way I think, and that's what motivates me. I can also see another approach that builds from bottom-up: one step at a time, working out small pieces and then assembling them into a whole. Since you ain't gettin' paid for this, whatever keeps you going is what you "should" do.

That said, however you work, a coherent but flexible vision is critical. I might suggest the following questions:

* What is the most interesting part of Civilization's gameplay?
* What is the twist or change that motivates your mod?
* Why will playing this mod be fun?
* And in the words of Sid, what are the interesting choices a player will have to make?

I do find myself going back constantly to the vanilla Civ4 mechanics and learning from it how to balance a game, how to sequence different choices for the player, and just figuring out what makes it tick so I can deconstruct it and put it together again.

For example, one problem that Roanoke shares with SotM is a lack of food -- as it turns out the Rule of Three (food, production, money) is a crucial balancing mechanism that is pretty core to the Civ game experience. If you make each terrain and improvement move in only one direction, you take away the "interesting choices." For example, in vanilla Civ I struggle with whether to put farms or cottages next to rivers -- because early on farms can only be put next to rivers, but rivers give bonus commerce which boost cottages. In Roanoke, while there are a handful of improvement choices, there is only one obvious choice per tile, which means there really is no choice at all.

My point isn't to get into the specifics of that particular mechanic, but to underline that understanding the core mechanics of the game is critical if you want to figure out (a) what makes the game fun, generally, and (b) how to make your own mod fun, specifically. My messing with the core resource model of Civ, Roanoke now faces a challenge of how to replace it with something equally fun, or putting it back and covering it up with cosmetics. (I guess this is a long-winded way of echoing what Thamis was saying).

In going back to the very first posts laying out this mod concept there was an idea that SotM would be a prelude to the colonization of Mars. IMHO, colonizing Mars is far more interesting that the Moon. Colonizing the Moon strikes me as quite static, kind of like an oil-drilling expedition. Colonizing Mars seems a lot more dynamic, as there is a realistic chance of terraforming the surface to be livable -- tho perhaps that's my own bias in working on Roanoke.
 
Padmewan said:
In going back to the very first posts laying out this mod concept there was an idea that SotM would be a prelude to the colonization of Mars. IMHO, colonizing Mars is far more interesting that the Moon. Colonizing the Moon strikes me as quite static, kind of like an oil-drilling expedition. Colonizing Mars seems a lot more dynamic, as there is a realistic chance of terraforming the surface to be livable -- tho perhaps that's my own bias in working on Roanoke.
I wasn't sure if I should bring it up but I think that Padmewan is onto something here. I think Mars is just generally more interesting topic, and it has more potential. Just as an example, putting aliens on the moon is stretching it, while on Mars it's much more fitting. Since you're rethinking and restarting essentially the entire project it might be viable to move it to Mars. Of course you did say you already did a lot of research about the Moon, but perhaps most of it can be easily translated to mars. Of course that's just an idea, in either case this is a very ambitious project and a great mod.
 
I've started 3 times to reply to all of this, but for once can't put down what I'm trying to say. Amazing, huh?

I love the Moon, love SMAC, and would love to colonize the Red planet.

Obviously SotM turned into a CF, but it was a valuable learning experience for me personally. I know the disorganization was crippling, but we turned out a decent product while basically rudderless.

Whether we scrap it and start over, repair this one, or venture to another cellestial body I think it'll be a fantastic mod.
 
Rabbit said:
If you don't mind me chiming in here...

I think you're taking on too much at once. Having all those things as part of the "design document" is all fine and well but only when you're talking about a team of developers, not two or three people. You'll spend so much time on designing this complete vision and by the time you're done the inspiration will be gone. What's ironic about it is that, at least in the gaming industry, design documents never survive in their original form, they keep changing throughout the project.

What I think would be a better approach is to try to separate things into discrete parts. Figure out the priority of things - what in your mind is more important for making it feel like the mod you're trying to make. Is it the civics, or the tech tree, or the look of the game, or something else. Then try to limit your work on that part. Now obviously you can't completely ignore the other stuff since all is related, and at some point you will need to start working on all the elements together, but for starters just do the first important part, with minimal work on others, then move on to the next stage, and so on.

You mention stuff like resources, water, lunar dust, nuclear and ICBM missiles, satellites and so on. All important evetually, but perhaps terrain changes, other than graphical (and even those) can wait till you got a more solid foundation.

Tech tree too, that's like a huge job. Now, I never tried redoing the whole tree but perhaps if the tree follows the other stuff as opposed to the other way around it might work better. What I mean is, instead of sitting doing redoing the tree and then adding buildings and units to it, instead you add to and modify the tree as the need arises, based on units, civics, etc.

Anyway, the important thing in all this is that you start working on stuff instead of spending too much time on the design. Just the process of making stuff and adding to the mod and seeing it grow will keep inspiring you to continue the work. :)

The frustrating part of all this is people keep making suggestions like I don't already have a plan :/. Neither Warsong nor I are strangers to game design :). I totally disagree that what I need to do is just "start working on stuff". That was what we did before, and it was pretty much a disaster. The danger here is the perception that somehow we're in a quagmire or we're "stuck" or whatever. We're not. We're simply not working on this project right now. It's not a problem of not being capable of pursuing our methodology, it's a problem of not having the team available to do it. I don't have Warsong to finish my design doc. I don't have Matthewv to work on feature experimentation. And as I love to point out to Woodelf, I can't even get a dozen simple buttons made. This team is about the sound and the fury. Full tilt or fizzle. We can't full tilt without a direction--we'll just careen off of walls and wreck the ship.

In response to other things, I agree with Thamis optimally, but SotM shares very little in common with vanilla Civ4. Instead what we want to do is create a new baseline and incrementally mod off of that. We want to chart out how to model those important differences in an internally consistant fashion, which is what we're trying to do. Once we have an idea of the tools we're going to implement to model things (e.g. Hidden Unhappiness, Brown-outs, Extraction-Tech Driven Resource Surveying, etc.) we can rationally decide how we want to model the things we are going to put in, and decide which features, etc. we wish to put in first, in what order, etc. This is very much in concordance with what Padmewan was getting at. We have a different underlying set of relationships to model on the moon, and we're trying to make sure we have a design that has some dynamic gameplay in it. We don't want to have to rely on luck and providential discovery of such mid-development :).

We're doing a rewrite here, effectively, of the entire Civ 4 gamebase. We need to make decisions about scoping for techs and units, strength and scoring, pacing, limiting factors, as well as dynamic aspects of the game design. I'm not saying we're going to work all that out ahead of time, far from it. I'm just saying we want to have a good enough picture, a solid enough framework that we arn't constantly struggling against ourselves, what we've already done, against that feeling that various things don't fit, and against the urge to rewrite the entire mod again. This isn't a mod based on knowledge that I ken enough to wing. I haven't internalized any holistic mapping. I haven't even thought through all the real world issues of moon colonization. What about just lobbing schumltz into a low deteriorating orbit calculated to smash into someone else's colony. Why doesn't that work? If that really is as trivially possible as it sounds, how would real people deal with those realities? How do we want to work that into the mod (or do we ignore it as being too unfun)? We have a lot of little questions like that we want to make sure we've gone through and incorporated answers for into the framework so that the mod has some internal logic to it, and doesn't fail the 5th grader test :).

And finally, as to ideas of Mars, there are a few important things to keep in mind here. This isn't my mod, and this isn't my vision. I don't have a vision for this mod, that's why I need to work up the design doc with Warsong. The closest thing I've had to a vision for this mod were my thoughts for the Lunacy version, which, in a way, I guess, is the basis for the design doc, just without the dependency on.. well.. the Lunacy part. I've accepted the responsibility of taking on leadership of the mod for historical reasons, and because I've put so much codework into a mod whose founder turned out to have more ambition then motivation. This is not the mod I had intended to make for myself. If team and public interest all shifted away from the current lunar focus and decided, in a sort of coup-like rebellion to pursue a Mars-based mod, I wouldn't even be involved with it. This project for me is a matter of finishing something I started working on, and it's requiring a lot of salvage work for me :). It may not be entirely logical, but I have a certain amount of "emotional" investment in building a lunar mod, and I'd like to finish it. And finish it up to something approximating my standards 8).

There really isn't a situation here that needs to be fixed. All that needs to happen is for Warsong and I to simultaneously have the time to finish the key foundation work for the mod. No mod can be built without the authors spending time to build it. So it is with SotM.
 
Sounds good man. I know we kinda hijacked your thread to talk about general or specific game design kind of stuff. Everyone has a different process.

There are only a few mod threads I follow closely, and this is one of them. I also stop to read your posts as I scan through other threads. I hope you don't read any of this as anything but people excited about this project, the work you have done, and the vision you have for what is to come.
 
Belizan said:
The frustrating part of all this is people keep making suggestions like I don't already have a plan :/. Neither Warsong nor I are strangers to game design :). I totally disagree that what I need to do is just "start working on stuff". That was what we did before, and it was pretty much a disaster. The danger here is the perception that somehow we're in a quagmire or we're "stuck" or whatever. We're not. We're simply not working on this project right now.
I apologize if by my tone I come across as patronizing or believing that you are totally lost. I may have misread your earlier posts as indicating this, so my apologies.
Belizan said:
There really isn't a situation here that needs to be fixed. All that needs to happen is for Warsong and I to simultaneously have the time to finish the key foundation work for the mod. No mod can be built without the authors spending time to build it. So it is with SotM.
Again, sorry if I sounded like I was questioning this, and for contributing to the hijacking of this thread. I appreciate that you are laying out a (much needed) coherent vision for this mod and am interested in how you answer some of the same questions we're struggling with. (Since we DON'T have a scientist in our midst, we ARE actually winging it, mostly by cribbing off Wikipedia). Unfortunately, I don't think I can offer the one thing you really need, which is hands on deck, though I'd be happy to supply whatever I can from our work -- and of course you can borrow as liberally from us as we have already from you. (Buttons I can do; units I can't...)
 
Belizan said:
The frustrating part of all this is people keep making suggestions like I don't already have a plan :/
I apologize then because I misunderstood what you were trying to say. :)
 
No worries :). This has just been a certain recurring theme I've noticed where either there are demonstrable releases being made, or there must be something horribly wrong and everyone needs to rush in and try to fix it. I just get a little exasperated saying the same thing in a slightly different way every week. Doubly so because I, myself, am poignantly aware of the motivation and momentum issues and the cost that has been incurred by this team because of them. But as the saying goes, it's gonna do what's it's gonna do :/. None of us here are paid to do this :/. We just cope with what we have to work with as best we can. It would be nice from my point of view if the Moon Mod team had a setting other then full tilt, but again, it is what it is--and we arn't ready to go full tilt :/.
 
And I apologize for making it seem like we don't have a plan, but to be fair to everyone who has offered advice ----- we haven't had a plan for so long that it's become second nature.

I have every confidence that the next version will rock. As Kael told me long ago: you need a leader who can do the programming. We didn't have that before and now we do. Now we simply need the leader to get a press secretary to fill us in on the plan...
 
yea, time to move on with this and choose a new direction. :)

if you want to scrap this and go with a classic Mars type mod, that's fine with me :)
 
:lol:

People love Mars Belizan. Others love the moon. Don't despair as the Moon is first and foremost.
 
shlomitan said:
who about use the SDK and make a few planets that you can fly betwean them?

Check the Graphics Modpacks section under Garret's Stars....Stars thread. He's heading that way, slowly.
 
yea, we could take NASA's idea about using the moon as a jumping point and have the ultimate goal be interplanetary travel with Mars bieng one step and then other places.

and perhaps we could clinch it with a major, major disaster on earth which would make it not a very good idea to return to earth for many centuries such as a nuclear war or something that causes the collapse of civilization and there is no way to refuel or something and theres a chance of bieng stuck back on earth. or some similar plot twist.
 
Originally JBG planned on the Moon mod being a start to something more grand like that smjjames. I don't know if Belizan has that same dream, but anyone can use this mod to make another mod to Mars...or beyond!
 
Of course the Moon's got to be the starting point, it's the closest place!
I have followed this mod since Feb, and I'm sorry to say that the only ability I can offer is play testing and suggesting possible tech's and their uses (maybe vice versa).

Note about lobbing stuff into lunar orbit, see the Isaac Asimov short story about the first war on the moon. Seems the USSR & USA had a short war, about 17 hours long. Both side expended loads of ammunition (slug throwers). The next few years budgets were spent on computers to calculate the trajectories of all those bullets, just so they (both sides) could get out of the path of the incoming.

Yes I love this mod, and I look forward to all the twists and turns that its going to take. I just hope that I can provide some feedback so WoodElf, Belizan et al don't get fed up and hang it up.

Hooo Yah! post #777. This should be reason enough to continue, look at the responses!
 
Top Bottom