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The state of Industrial Zones and Great Engineers.

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Archon_Wing, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Nice analysis there. I think the biggest reason they fall flat is that wonder bonuses are just too simple. They're all "X hammers" with no rhyme or reason. At least the merchant trade route ones are more specialized - some are increased capacity, some are bonus to internal routes, some external routes, etc... I wish there was some way to "classify" the wonders, and then you could have a little more variety with the engineers. Like if one gave a larger bonus, but only to wonders built on water. Or maybe if there was an engineer that let you bypass certain terrain restrictions on a wonder, that would be awesome. Imagine having a great engineer that lets you build Venetian Arsenal without having to be next to an industrial zone? Maybe that's too strong a bonus, although if it didn't actually give you production to it but just let you start it, it would at least be an incredibly fun engineer to try to get.
     
  2. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Well, I think it's actually good in a sense because growing bigger means more amenity problems. It's why Germany has an advantage in that regards.

    But then again, if you use this in a developed city, it probably already has the needed districts and adding the capacity for ... Holy Sites and Entertainment Complexes probably isn't very stunning.
     
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Sorry, I didn’t explain myself well.

    The problem is having a flat bonus for IZ buildings. Because having a flat bonus means the bonus has to be small and so the buildings never matter much by themselves. Otherwise you would just build IZ and buildings in every city regardless of terrain and regardless of victory type - they would no longer be situational.

    In other words, IZ buildings give a low production boost and don’t get a 2X card precisely because they do primarily provide a flat production bonus.

    You can see how FXS meant IZ to work. You’d build IZ largely based on adjacency to mines. You’d later build factories and power plants if that made sense situationally. These would not boost their original city that much, but by overlapping their bonuses you could pool the production bonuses into one high production city. That was later nerfed out, but they’ve sort of tried to bring it back again with Magnus.

    I think the whole overlapping production bonus was not a good idea, particularly given Civ VI doesn’t give you any visual way of seeing overlap (you need cqui for that). I think the better approach to IZs and buildings would be: (1) approach the production pooling in some other way, eg workshop and factories boosting trade route yields to from that city or boosting mines and production the way Rhur Valley does, and (3) make factories and powerplants more mixed yield - eg maybe they give regional amenities and housing.
     
  4. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    A separate point.

    I’m very glad @Archon_Wing brought up this thread. And I also really appreciate @Sostratus amd others comments.

    As this discussion has gone on, I’m beginning to think these issues with IZs and their buildings - and relatedly Campus spam, limited utility of Pop and food, limited significance of strategic resources and the power of late game chopping - is a big part of the mid to late game problem. There is a lot here I think feeds into some points I made in a long post about the Indistrial Revolution, but also goes beyond that post significantly.

    RnF has made a lot of these problems worse, by making housing and amenities even easier to get, and making chopping even more powerful.

    I don’t think the game is “broken”. But a bit like Anti-Cav and Military Tactics, there are just a bunch of related mechanics that need to be looked at together to get this all working.

    I’m am really frustrated there are still so many parts of the game that you basically can’t play with because balance wise they don’t work. I’m not saying we should all be swimming in production late game either, but IZ, Neifhbourhoods, things like that need to have some relevance, and they just don’t.

    I’m really tired of having all these cool toys that just don’t do anything. This is maybe why I have got so frustrated about the England nerfs (yes I know, “here I go again”). Pre Nerf, I could kind of find interesting angles to play Civ through to the late game. When they took England off the table, I found that so many of the toys I’d like to play with instead don’t work: anti-cav, industrial zones...

    To be clear, lots of stuff works really well or only needs small tweaks. But it feels as if there are big chunks of what should be in the game which either aren’t there or don’t work.
     
  5. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    Hmm... :mischief:
     
  6. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    LOL Yeah, exactly. A Campus in every city is useful now, regardless of which victory condition you're pursuing, unless you're okay with dragging the game out - as many are, who want to play for the fun of building their empire.

    But the current rules already reward putting a Campus everywhere, at least in the early cities. If you're going Religious or Domination, you can stop researching when you know those victories are won, but Science and Cultural both benefit from racing up the tech tree as fast as you can.
     
  7. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Heh heh. Yes, quite right. And I do think that is why campuses get spammed!

    But an IZ is also different beast to a Campus.

    A campus is not actually “always good”. It depends on how useful science is to your strategy. If you’re going for a religious or cultural victory, you may not be that fussed about science beyond a certain point. Even for domination, you could still potentially focus on culture (eg armies) rather than science(*).

    The IZ and it’s buildings are different. If the buildings were strong, they’d apply to all victory types. This is because you’d build a few “victory” districts plus IZs and then use the IZ to just run projects to get whatever yield or great people you need.

    As I see it, to some extent Civ VI tries to force you to “pool” production and limit your ability to create super productive cities. That “pooling” can be through overlapping IZ, trade routes, building builders, but also gold and faith. I think part of this design is to encourage “wide” or “sprawling” empires.

    Put another way, Civ VI tries to make you work for large production, by not giving you some building that just always boosts mid / late game production.

    Or, looking at this from another angle, Civ VI is really just a game about filling various buckets with hammers. How Civ makes that interesting is by making you have to convert your hammers into other yields and making it hard for you to move hammers around or turn hammers on or off. If the IZ just lets you have lots and lots of hammers, that whole thing would break down. That’s a big difference between campuses and IZ. A campus can research the spaceport but it can’t actually build you the spaceport. An IZ can do both. It can obviously build your spaceport etc, but via projects, it can also potentially let you research the spaceport, get the right government etc.,
    and let you build an army as well to crush everyone else before they go to mars.

    But, to be clear: that’s just my guess about pooling production, and if that is the design intention, it doesn’t seem to work. But it’s that design which I think is why IZ buildings give low flat bonuses and dont have building cards.

    I’m all for buffing IZ buildings. But just not with “bigger” flat bonuses. The buildings need to be something more situational.

    (*) The catch is that, if you’re playing optimally, maxing science seems to almost always be the best way to win (almost) every victory type. Although, maybe not. There is that 4 Theatre District Strat, and perhaps optimal players don’t need much science for dom beyond whatever gets them to Knights.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  8. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Prince

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    Yeah I agree. I rarely spam campuses but I don't play for SV very often. It's useful to do so then but o/w I generally put hard focus on the victory type district and just build enough campuses to keep up in tech or even enough to just barely get by. You really need very few of them at all (possibly none) with certain civs like Sumeria, Macedon, and Nubia.
     
  9. isau

    isau Deity

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    IMO the IZ should be connected to the ability to purchase things with Gold, which may seem somewhat counterproductive, except that is what a Factory or Workshop basically is IRL. I'd do it as a radial effect applying to cities up to X ties away:

    Workshop: can purchase buildings/units up to the Medieval era
    Factory: can purchase buildings/units up to the Industrial era
    Power Plant: can purchase buildings/units up to the Information era


    That would make the IZ useful but mainly as a strategic district placed in occasional cities. The production lift would just be an extra bonus.
     
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  10. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Prince

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    Another interesting idea might be to have the industrial zones provide a big bonus to building other districts and infrastructure - I think I would prioritize them more if that was the case.
     
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  11. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    Usually IZ allows you to produce things and a market allows to trade things.
    Purchasing unit upgrades or buying new units can be seen as an international weapons market, e.g. african nations (without factories) buying chinese weapons, Middle East nations with lots of petro-$ buying US or Soviet weapons, etc.

    The game series is missing a realistic weapons market where you can only buy military units which have been produced before (by another player).

    Breaking the Upgrade Chain for modern units (around 19th century), give modern units an additional +10 Combat Strength and make factories provide a bonus like +50% - +100% to city production would make IZs a must to survive modern eras ...
     
  12. juanpavo

    juanpavo Warlord

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    I like this idea

    Upgrading an archer into a crossbowman makes sense. Many of the others mostly make sense. But upgrading a knight into a tank makes no sense at all.
     
  13. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    “Look, I’m sorry, but me, this armour and my horse are just not going to fit into that”.
     
  14. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Upgrading a boat into another kind of boat also doesn't make much sense (though some irornclads were famously retro-fitted). I think the basis of the upgrading is that you have the crew with the right kind of training. A knight can't turn into a tank, but a club also can't turn into a sword.

     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  15. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Never mind your troops that are 2000 years old... But yes, from what I understand, the theory is about the regiments and experience, and not about the actual troop themselves.
     
  16. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    The fact that upgrades are purchased with Gold rather than by Production means that in Civ 6 a large part of those late game tanks and planes and ships are produced by (private) 3rd party weapon manufacturers and not the players, so the game balance shifted from a balanced military economy with (unit)-Production and Gold (upkeep) to a simple Gold-economy (buy/upgrade/maintain units with Gold).
     
  17. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    A problem ( for me) is that the best thing a country can do to prepare for war is to switch from hammers to gold as much as possible.
    As an alternative for wealthy countries without manpower or industry but with wealth like ancient Carthage or modern Saudi Arabia it might make sense but it doesn't represent the war economies of major industrial powers very well.
     
  18. liv

    liv Emperor

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    Not sure that this is true. Hammars are going to more important I think

    The reason I do not build industrial zones is that it takes more hammars to build them and the buildings than what I can reasonably get out of them and there is not any reason to sacrifice science output for the industrial zone
     
  19. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Gold buys me an instant unit, hammers may take too long for the unit to be useful
     
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  20. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I thought it might be good to bump this thread too now we’ve got Gathering Storm coming out.

    Do people think IZs and GE may be better in GS?

    So far, it looks like IZ adjacencies won’t change, which is a bid sad. I’ve mentioned before, but I’d modded IZs to give +1 adjacency from strategic resources (so, Horses give +1, an iron mine +2), which made them much better.

    IZs will get a revised Indistrial Zone Logistics though that’ll bump their power output and give bonus GE points. We know power will boost yields (see England’s new ability). My guess is hammers produced by your IZ and IZ buildings will be one of the yields boosted by power, basically giving IZs the boost they’ve been looking for.

    My guess is GEs may also get a slight revamp given all the new major engineering works.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018

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