The state of Industrial Zones and Great Engineers.

[Trav'ling Canuck]

One note to make is that the IZ, uniquely of the other yield districts, has and adjacency card but does not have a building card, nor has it ever. Obviously, originally being able to stack regional buildings would have made this blatantly OP, though even today +100% from buildings would mean +9 production, which isn't awful. For reference, Theatre squares' buildings give 8 (2+2?+4), Campus' give +11 (2+4+5), and a C Hub's give +15.

Gold is clearly worth less than other resources, hence the CH buildings give more, but now that I look at it, I'm really surprised campus buildings give so much science.

Interesting point. Wonder how big an impact changing University to +3 [and Research Lab to +4] would have.

Culture buildings also house great works, which provide culture + tourism. I suspect that's the reason why their base yields are below their Science comparables. Possibly the relative sizes of the civics vs tech tree may also play into it.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I think IZ's can be fun given the right set of variables. For instance, spamming IZ's can get you the vast majority of the great engineers as well as extra production. Inspired by this thread, I plan to spam IZ's in most of my cities and ignore Theatre Squares. With Kumasi and Antananarivo I think I can have both a high production and culture with each GE giving me another 2% boost to my culture. This should get me the 3 wonder engineers which can be deployed to build the Estádio do Maracanã which will give me another +6 culture per city, which will also give +2 amenities empire wide. Seems a nice synergy for warmongering. And a fun challenge for the game, become a cultural juggernaut without building any meaningful quantity of Theatre Squares.

If you're warmongering, the space race great engineers are actually of some use, as you would want the War Dept, not the Royal Society. So I think IZ's are actually of some use for large map war focused games. Achieving quick cultural or science victories, not so much so.

Here is a screenshot to illustrate that I can have a high culture while also having only 3 Theatre Squares in the entirety of the realm. The great engineers should quick build the Estádio do Maracanã netting even more culture long before I could otherwise achieve it. And that will be from GE's from IZ spam. I don't think it's an accident that the workshop yields +1 culture from DaVinci. Firaxis knows this strategy works.

Spoiler :

View attachment 498692

Again, not useful for all situations, but certainly a viable district given the right set of variables.

Well, I did it. I’m not exactly sure what I learned. There are just so many different variables and choices one can make throughout such a long game that making an intelligent statement regarding the relative efficiency of the strategy, beyond "well, I did it" seems a bit of a stretch. I used the Great Engineers Isidore of Miletus and Filippo Brunelleschi to shave about ½ the production time off building the Estádio do Maracanã, which bounced my culture from 1000 on turn T450 to 1800 on T453 (Marathon Speed / 200% slower).

Spoiler T450 :

Spoiler T453 :

Could I have simply planned ahead, left some lumber to chop, and completed it even sooner? Probably.

As for having any particular need for my cultural bounty, I’m not so sure I needed that either. With the 1700 culture per turn I am 11 turns from Globalization, without it I'm pretty close as well, shrug.

Spoiler :

The people are happy. There is that. How, exactly, that is tied with IZ’s expediting the procedure? Err…I’m not exactly sure. But I did do it, and IZ’s seemed to have helped.

Spoiler :

Would straight up building Theatre Squares and projects have made it go even faster? Maybe.

So, given the right circumstances, IZ's are a viable district type and can become a cultural bonanza (again given the right map type).

Perhaps IZ are a district type for those of us who just like to build things (as opposed to conjure them up with the alchemy of overflow mechanics).

Edit: Having 1700 culture per turn with only 9 Theatre Squares is amusing to me and the GE's from IZ's helped expedite the Estádio. Again, I could have probably chopped it quicker though.

So, this IZ district type doesn't really have a point then? So my note seems to have captured the essence of the IZ as well, as I'm not sure there is a point here either .

 

[kaspergm]

Perhaps IZ are a district type for those of us who just like to build things (as opposed to conjure them up with the alchemy of overflow mechanics).

I approve of this statement.

 

[liv]

I approve of this statement.

I would amend the statement to: Perhaps IZ are a district type for those of us who just like to build things and do not care if the thing we are building have any purpose

 

[Disgustipated]

there's always a purpose, even if that purpose is just to look cool.

I often use GE's to build Estadio. I consider it an awesome wonder. If you have at least a few entertainment districts, you'll find nearly all your cities ecstatic for the rest of the game. What's not to like. Though I usually use Eiffel for this purpose, not the other two, he gives more hammers.

Because if I'm building an IZ in the first place, it's because I have nothing at the moment to build, so why not use those hammers to build something faster later? I generally build commercial/harbor, and campus/theater square first of course.

 

[acluewithout]

Should IZ be a frequently built district or a niche district? If niche, what niche?

I think IZs should be fairly niche (and so should campuses). I’d like IZs and their buildings more focused on concentrating production and science in a high value city, or maybe boosting other cities late game.

 

[Tabarnak]

It's certainly more useful in mp games, due to game length.

Fastest science victories should be around the turn 200+. That actually explain the lack of usefulness of IZ.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Should IZ be a frequently built district or a niche district? If niche, what niche?

I think IZs should be fairly niche (and so should campuses). I’d like IZs and their buildings more focused on concentrating production and science in a high value city, or maybe boosting other cities late game.

I think it'd be fine as a niche district that provides utility that you would miss otherwise. Cities that could be specialized to build things as in previous civs.

I think the encampment is a great district. I would even say it's the best designed district in the whole game. It's not a district that always gets built, but it has a purpose, and it's very good at that purpose; which no amount of subjectivity can deny. It's only not valued in Single Player because the AI is stupid. The encampment makes your cities harder to attack, increases production/housing, and provides Great Generals. It is certainly more tangible than a "production" district that barely increases production. Or a anti-cavalry unit that doesn't counter cavalry. That's why the spearline is the biggest meme in the game. It's a failure. (Though IZs aren't there yet, I guess)

I mean I do a lot of "suboptimal" stuff for fun too. Ships are frequently derided but fractal often lands me on a lot of situations where the sea comes into play. The thing about ships is that while they're not that good at taking out land units, they also can't be countered easily with land units and it's easy to launch surprise attacks with them. Now I'm sure better players would just chop 100 horsemen and overwhelm them before anything happens, but at least I explained myself.


But that's the thing. There really is no such thing as district specializations. You can't have science megacities, you just have a generic city that's slightly less generic because it's been around longer. Past the early game you don't even build units, you just upgrade/buy them because the cost scales too fast. That's probably why a lot of people find the later parts of the game boring. So you can build things in 15 turns instead of 20. Big whoop when we see expert players finishing the game in 150 turns on Deity as the norm. And Maracana? lol 10% boost to all cities in a best case scenario for 1680 production? (Yes I'm assuming we dump the GE into it). It'd be probably be better to build a few zoos and everyone knows how great ECs are.

It's not something as simple as saying "well, nerf campuses", because well, they already were. It's more about bringing other options into the game. Even if you removed campuses from the game, I'm still not going to build IZs or Holy Sites outside of a religious victory.

 

[sixty4half]

Or whipping slaves a la cIV

Please no

Why not? Currently, population is not that big of a factor. Sure you need the guys to work the mines and quarrys, but beyond that I don't need massively Tall cities in this game. Add on top of that; the ability to drop my city back into happiness simply by rushing a project... yes please. I could theoretically sacrifice someone working a 4 Food tile, and not only gain a Crossbow, but actually increase the speed in which I would build my next Knight.

 

[Sostratus]

Should IZ be a frequently built district or a niche district? If niche, what niche?

What districts shouldn't be niche? As in, should any districts, by design, be built in almost every city? Arguably one from the set {harbor,commercial hub} to get the trade route capacity, but beyond that...

I think the encampment is a great district. It's not a district that always gets built, but it has a purpose, and it's very good at that purpose.

This I strongly agree with. It's not so generally good you always want more, or so abysmal that you only want one or zero; they're enough of a boon to military production that it makes sense to build them in some big production centers you build your military in. (Obviously, in games where you are fighting and losing units instead of relying on the immortal upgraded warrior platoon.)

But for the districts that provide raw yields - campus, TS, HS, CH, IZ- are much tougher to balance to that standard because they all give flat yields from their buildings, whereas the encampment has a more "intangible" +%XP and +corps/army production, plus the ranged strike.

The nature of the IZ having 2 strictly regional buildings really hurts it here as well. Obviously in the base game, building each factory could be worth +12-15 production for your empire, so things really got out of hand fast. The idea was very clever, so perhaps there is a method to incorporate it in an easier to balance way. Especially given that the designers seem to have really shied away from +% bonuses at the district building level.

 

[acluewithout]

I think it'd be fine as a niche district that provides utility that you would miss otherwise. Cities that could be specialized to build things as in previous civs.

I think the encampment is a great district. I would even say it's the best designed district in the whole game. It's not a district that always gets built, but it has a purpose, and it's very good at that purpose; which no amount of subjectivity can deny. It's only not valued in Single Player because the AI is stupid. The encampment makes your cities harder to attack, increases production/housing, and provides Great Generals. It is certainly more tangible than a "production" district that barely increases production. Or a anti-cavalry unit that doesn't counter cavalry. That's why the spearline is the biggest meme in the game. It's a failure. (Though IZs aren't there yet, I guess)

I mean I do a lot of "suboptimal" stuff for fun too. Ships are frequently derided but fractal often lands me on a lot of situations where the sea comes into play. The thing about ships is that while they're not that good at taking out land units, they also can't be countered easily with land units and it's easy to launch surprise attacks with them. Now I'm sure better players would just chop 100 horsemen and overwhelm them before anything happens, but at least I explained myself.


But that's the thing. There really is no such thing as district specializations. You can't have science megacities, you just have a generic city that's slightly less generic because it's been around longer. Past the early game you don't even build units, you just upgrade/buy them because the cost scales too fast. That's probably why a lot of people find the later parts of the game boring. So you can build things in 15 turns instead of 20. Big whoop when we see expert players finishing the game in 150 turns on Deity as the norm. And Maracana? lol 10% boost to all cities in a best case scenario for 1680 production? (Yes I'm assuming we dump the GE into it). It'd be probably be better to build a few zoos and everyone knows how great ECs are.

It's not something as simple as saying "well, nerf campuses", because well, they already were. It's more about bringing other options into the game. Even if you removed campuses from the game, I'm still not going to build IZs or Holy Sites outside of a religious victory.

What districts shouldn't be niche? As in, should any districts, by design, be built in almost every city? Arguably one from the set {harbor,commercial hub} to get the trade route capacity, but beyond that...


This I strongly agree with. It's not so generally good you always want more, or so abysmal that you only want one or zero; they're enough of a boon to military production that it makes sense to build them in some big production centers you build your military in. (Obviously, in games where you are fighting and losing units instead of relying on the immortal upgraded warrior platoon.)

But for the districts that provide raw yields - campus, TS, HS, CH, IZ- are much tougher to balance to that standard because they all give flat yields from their buildings, whereas the encampment has a more "intangible" +%XP and +corps/army production, plus the ranged strike.

The nature of the IZ having 2 strictly regional buildings really hurts it here as well. Obviously in the base game, building each factory could be worth +12-15 production for your empire, so things really got out of hand fast. The idea was very clever, so perhaps there is a method to incorporate it in an easier to balance way. Especially given that the designers seem to have really shied away from +% bonuses at the district building level.

All good points. I don’t disagree with any of this.

What are general and what are niche districts? I don’t think there should be any districts you build in every city. But there should be some districts you usually build more of (general) and others you build less (niche), but no hard rules either way. To me, harbours and commercial hubs should be general / common districts, maybe encampments and TDs too depending on your strategy, and IZs and campuses should be more niche.

I don’t think restricting campuses would solve all the problems with IZs. It would help, but a wider fix is needed, probably going beyond the IZ itself and looking a trade yields, strategic resources vis a vis enconomy, +% yield bonuses, utility of population, utility of GEs, and the point of the late game.

@Sostratus What do you mean the IZ has two “strictly” regional buildings? Do the Factory and Powerplant not boost the city they are built in?

 

[Sostratus]

Culture buildings also house great works, which provide culture + tourism. I suspect that's the reason why their base yields are below their Science comparables. Possibly the relative sizes of the civics vs tech tree may also play into it.

What I was thinking when I wrote that was that the campus is a high impact district over the "base case" (as is the TS) compared to an IZ. Ignoring the adjacency for a moment, since districts occupy a tile, population gives 0.5 science and culture per point. That's the main early source of these things, and for a lot of players who don't realize how strong campuses are or don't play that way, it is the primary source throughout the game. Libraries, universities, and research labs give 4, 8, and 10 pop equivalent science- 22 total. Theater Squares sans great works are dishing out 16 pop equivalent. The IZ's buildings, if you don't already have coverage, can at best give +9 production. That's only a handful of citizens' worth. If you already have factory coverage, then its a paltry +2 prod for the workshop- a citizen or so.

The IZ's biggest advantage by far is the adjacency in good spots, which, as has been pointed out elsewhere, implies a high production city in the first place, so you get relatively even less out of the IZ.

 

[acluewithout]

What I was thinking when I wrote that was that the campus is a high impact district over the "base case" (as is the TS) compared to an IZ. Ignoring the adjacency for a moment, since districts occupy a tile, population gives 0.5 science and culture per point. That's the main early source of these things, and for a lot of players who don't realize how strong campuses are or don't play that way, it is the primary source throughout the game. Libraries, universities, and research labs give 4, 8, and 10 pop equivalent science- 22 total. Theater Squares sans great works are dishing out 16 pop equivalent. The IZ's buildings, if you don't already have coverage, can at best give +9 production. That's only a handful of citizens' worth. If you already have factory coverage, then its a paltry +2 prod for the workshop- a citizen or so.

The IZ's biggest advantage by far is the adjacency in good spots, which, as has been pointed out elsewhere, implies a high production city in the first place, so you get relatively even less out of the IZ.

To me, the problem with the IZ is that it largely just “adds” production to an city, rather than actually boosting the production of that city.

Compare that to Rhur Valley. Leaving aside whether it’s actually that good a wonder, the fun of it is that makes a strong production city stronger - the city’s mines are made “better” and then overall production is boosted.

I suggested workshop adding +1 production to trade routes originating from that city for that reason - you can sometimes concentrate trade routes into a good city to boost growth (work more mines) and just flat out boosting production. Having workshops add in additional production means you can really lean into that mechanic.

The regional production bonus of factories was misguided. Factories and power plants should give amenities and housing, and then boost the local production of their cities - through trade route yields, buffing mines etc., and or +% production boost. Both buildings should also be linked to strategic resources in some way.

 

[acluewithout]

A related thought.

I’m really not sure what is the aim of Great Engineers, or how they relate to Great Merchants.

I’d sort of thought GEs were about tall play - hence why they give bonuses to amenities, housing, walls, district capacity and wonders. Merchants seem directed at wide play, hence the emphasis on gold, luxuries and (maybe) trade routes.

I think part of why GEs don’t work is because “Tall” doesn’t really work in Civ VI (for reasons discussed in that recent super good tall v wide war v peace thread).

Do GEs need a rethink? I think you’d need to figure out what IZs and their buildings “do” in the game first, and then work out how GEs fit. If IZs are meant to concentrate production and or enable tall-like play, maybe GEs should more directly boost population or boost population yields. I’d also like to see GEs maybe unlocking specific tech and or connecting with your military more - eg imagine a GE that lets you unlock a unique Medieval Unit or unique catapult (Ballista).

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Why not? Currently, population is not that big of a factor. Sure you need the guys to work the mines and quarrys, but beyond that I don't need massively Tall cities in this game. Add on top of that; the ability to drop my city back into happiness simply by rushing a project... yes please. I could theoretically sacrifice someone working a 4 Food tile, and not only gain a Crossbow, but actually increase the speed in which I would build my next Knight.

Well, the things you said are exactly way. Way too abuseable in 4 and very neatly and easily solved too many challenges.

EDIT--plus, more free production would take the Industrial Zone even further into uselessness . . .

 

[acluewithout]

I prefer how Civ VI deals with slavery and forced labour. ie ignores it mechanically.

I assume that when I pick Autocracy or whatever there’s some slavery going on. Likewise certain policy cards (hello, serfdom?). I don’t think the game needs to get any more specific than that. Being able to burn pop for production sounds not only abuseable, but also very micro.

But there should be some point to having a high pop. At the least, high pop cities should produce proportionally more culture and or science per pop (although some of the culture / science cards do get at this with their 10+ pop requirements).

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I prefer how Civ VI deals with slavery and forced labour. ie ignores it mechanically.

I assume that when I pick Autocracy or whatever there’s some slavery going on. Likewise certain policy cards (hello, serfdom?). I don’t think the game needs to get any more specific than that. Being able to burn pop for production sounds not only abuseable, but also very micro.

But there should be some point to having a high pop. At the least, high pop cities should produce proportionally more culture and or science per pop (although some of the culture / science cards do get at this with their 10+ pop requirements).

Yeah, there should be something that makes a Big City zone more powerful than a little town with just a few pop to run a campus. Maybe zones could get some sort of benefit for number of other zones in a city? Just spitballing.

 

[acluewithout]

Yeah, there should be something that makes a Big City zone more powerful than a little town with just a few pop to run a campus. Maybe zones could get some sort of benefit for number of other zones in a city? Just spitballing.

That’s a very cool idea. Would synergies well with GEs that give an extra district slot and also Germany.

 

[Sostratus]

To me, the problem with the IZ is that it largely just “adds” production to an city, rather than actually boosting the production of that city.

It barely adds any, though. At least the buildings. Unless you're Japan, the dutch, or Germany, IZs themselves aren't even that good if you don't run the card.

Yeah, there should be something that makes a Big City zone more powerful than a little town with just a few pop to run a campus. Maybe zones could get some sort of benefit for number of other zones in a city? Just spitballing.

That’s a very cool idea. Would synergies well with GEs that give an extra district slot and also Germany.

Back in summer 2017 there was a lot of discussion about how to help tall cities be more than the sum of their parts- often including things like Power Plants giving production to each district in the city, etc. I think most of the T3 buildings could use similar "utility" powers to aid big cities, like how the stadium grants tourism.

GEs could also use some tweaking- there's 3 wonder rushers, and 3 that affect the IZ buildings (2/3 to give more production)- they feel like they should be a little more "production-y" and have beefier general perks.
3/18 rush wonders
3/18 boost IZ buildings
----
3/18 boost space race projects
2/18 give tile appeal
2/18 give housing and amenities to a city
2/18 give +1 district and a eureka
1/18 boosts EC regional buildings
1/18 gives the culture bomb
1/18 grants free walls

Small great person peeve: way too many give the eureka for computers.
Anyways, onto the GEs. One third of them are very "GE" type bonuses. Personally, I dislike the emphasis on the space race. With Sagan and Kwolek, that's a lot of Great People focused on that single victory. With the mausoleum in play, it also makes them a little ridiculous.

What I dislike about the housing GEs is that they don't boost growth, just the capacity, and so can "fall flat." Jane Drew alone would suffice for this category IMO.
The +1 district ability is also not that strong in the grand scheme. It's certainly useful - high production city, low growth, lots of key district sites- but it would be nice if they gave some kind of other benefit (like instantly complete a district they're standing on) etc.
Tile appeal is also something we could probably handle just 1 of- and many heavy industry players have ruined their appeal with mines around the IZs. The culture bomb ability is clever, but I wish it had a little more punch with it. Joseph Paxton is very strong - he's +2 amenities in 9 tiles, or +4 in 12 tiles. He's a mini colosseum/maracana, and really pairs well with the robber barons policy.

Compare with, say, the great merchants, 12/24 of which directly give you gold or trade routes, and a further 4 give you unique luxuries. (3 of which you can sell!) The remaining third have some more utility type effects. Great engineers, instead, have 1/3 as very GE/wonder/production focused, and the other 2/3 doing utility. Give me hammers or give me death!

The other big issue with GE balancing at the moment is the Mausoleum, which can make some effects really crazy (+200% to space race) or do nothing (can't get that eureka twice...). I love the wonder to death, but it's not the healthiest for game balance.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, there should be something that makes a Big City zone more powerful than a little town with just a few pop to run a campus. Maybe zones could get some sort of benefit for number of other zones in a city? Just spitballing.

I think one change that would help would be to increase the "citizen" yields for zones. Honestly, in the modern era, a citizen working in a factory should provide more production than a citizen working a mine, yet the factory's citizen only yields +2 production, whereas the mine will be something like 1 food/4 production at that point.

I'd like them to bring back the notion from the past that "specialists" cost half food/half amenities, and specialist yields should increase over time the same way that terrain yields do. If suddenly building an IZ/workshop/factory/PP, and putting 3 citizens in to work it now alone yielded 30 production (say, +3 from the IZ, +2 from the workshop, +3 factory, +4 PP, and 3x6 from the specialists), then I think we'd very quickly change our minds on its usefulness. And you can now either use it to make your production city stronger, or to actually get production from a city that otherwise doesn't have any. And it would also help people work "in" the cities as you get later in the tech tree. Maybe have the changes be:
-Specialist yields start as they do now, however each building adds to those yields. So citizen working a workshop is +2, if you have workshop/factory in a city each is now +4, workshop/factory/PP each is +6. Same for each other district with specialist spots.
-At Urbanization, each specialist only consumes 1/4 amenity instead of 1/2. At replaceable parts (?), each specialist only consumes 1 food instead of 2.

You'd have to grow cities faster so that they can actually have people working in the districts, it would also now have a real "industrialization" effect where suddenly you can gain a bunch of food/amenities as you go, and would logically be represented by people actually working in the city as you urbanize. Maybe you also add another bonus to neighbourhoods too - maybe having a neighbourhood adjacent to a district increases these specialist yields even more? And suddenly with this, you now have your game actually take a significant turn into how you assign citizens in the second half of the game.