The Status of Abstain

Should 'abstain' votes be counted

  • Abstain votes should be counted

    Votes: 10 29.4%
  • Abstain votes should not be counted

    Votes: 21 61.8%
  • Abstain

    Votes: 3 8.8%

  • Total voters
    34
  • Poll closed .

Furius

Prince
Joined
May 27, 2003
Messages
522
Location
New Zealand
Should abstain votes be counted?

If they are counted the we can have a situation where there are, say, 3 yes votes, 1 no vote and 3 abstains... Which means that 'yes' while more popular than 'no' would not be considered to have received a majority of the votes.

If they are not counted then some may see themselves 'shut out' of the democratic process

If this is not decided one way or the other, then close polls will have another aspect by which they may be disputed...

This poll is private and will close in 4 days


A long discussion of this, and other aspects of fair polling is found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=205453
 
I believe that abstain should be changed to none, or no choice.. which means I think they should not count
 
Ok, so does the abstain option count in this poll?

@Shattered: You lost my vote.

@Furius: Love the private poll.

ANY vote should count. If someone really doesn't care about the results of a poll then why are they voting? So they can more easily see the results of a poll they don't really care about? :crazyeye: Anyone wanting to register the fact that they are paying attention but don't really care about the poll can just make a post in the poll saying Hey, I'm here but I don't really care about this so I'm not voting.
 
ANY vote should count. If someone really doesn't care about the results of a poll then why are they voting? So they can more easily see the results of a poll they don't really care about? :crazyeye: Anyone wanting to register the fact that they are paying attention but don't really care about the poll can just make a post in the poll saying Hey, I'm here but I don't really care about this so I'm not voting.

So, if I'm reading your explination right. You are not really infavor of counting abstain, or not as such. More so infavor of eliminating abstain all together, or any other option which equates to a non-vote.

These are completely different viewpoints on the same matter. Because you're not saying abstain is a valid choice that deserves counting on it's own right. But more so ALL vote options should be valid meaningful choices.
 
Just voted no.

Because I abstained several times, I think I can speak a little about "abstain".

I could just not to vote, but I wanted to show that I am and want to be in the
game, and show respect to partners, so I voted; and not just posted, so that
my position can also be "translated" in numbers.

And I did not vote "yes" or "no" (or otherwise) because unsure or not caring
about that specif point.

So, my vote should not be counted to make or unmake a majority or plurality
(or whatever, but to count me as present in the game).

Best regards,
 
I don't think that abstain should be counted as long as the poll includes all possible options.
 
I don't think that abstain should be counted as long as the poll includes all possible options.
But that's kind of subjective... How do you work out if it included all possibly options? Take the vote on difficulty levels... That included only 'noble' 'prince' and 'emperor' not nearly all options... How would you have determined whether abstains would count for that?
 
Well, IMO in that vote abstain should have been counted. Everyone who wanted settler, warlord, chieftain, emperor, immortal or deity should have chosen abstain.
 
Well, the thing is, in parliaments, "Abstain" roughly means "Don't count me as here."
 
I think some energy is wasted trying to apply a particular meaning to "abstain". A simpler solution would be to consider two separate poll options:

- "None of the above" which would be counted and could prevent one of the other options from winning (whether the poll was majority or plurality based).
- "Observing, but not voting" which would not be counted and would simply be a way for people to show they were paying attention, but that they lacked a preference.

Whether either or both options would be included on a poll seems a question best left to the poll creator.
 
None of the above seems like something specific that would be put in the poll consciously...

'Abstain' is generally seen as, according to the current votes in the poll, synonymous with the latter of your two options... Donsig seems to disagree



Incidentally, I'm surprised no one's voted to 'abstain' yet... I guess everyone actually has an opinion on this issue?
 
ANY vote should count. If someone really doesn't care about the results of a poll then why are they voting?
I'm trying not to sound rude but this is just an appalling conclusion. Yes, every vote should count for what it measures. No counts the people opposed to a proposal, yes counts the people accepting the proposal and abstain counts the people that have no opinion on the matter. It is statistically unwanted and unheard off to take votes from one category and simply add them to the votes in another category. If you really want to do this, why even create a poll? Tempering with votes tells me that the person who does the tempering considers the voters to be morons. Besides, it's far from the democratric ideal to temper with votes and last thing I heard was that this game is called Democracy Game.
 
I'm trying not to sound rude but this is just an appalling conclusion. Yes, every vote should count for what it measures. No counts the people opposed to a proposal, yes counts the people accepting the proposal and abstain counts the people that have no opinion on the matter.

You don't sound rude at all. You're absolutely right but what you say applies only to poll questions that have only two mutually exclusive and all encompassing options that are present as vote options. In other words for a poll question like should we declare war on Alexander on turn 39? with options of yes, no and abstain. It doesn't work for poll questions like when should we declare war on Alexander? with options like next turn, turn 39, after we build a barracks in our capitol, abstain. These are the kinds of polls we have to prepare for. In the latter poll would we be bound to declare war on turn 39 if the result of the voting was 2/6/3/9? If I don't want to declare war at all how do I vote so that my vote is measured as a no?

So, if I'm reading your explination right. You are not really infavor of counting abstain, or not as such. More so infavor of eliminating abstain all together, or any other option which equates to a non-vote.

I am leaning that way for simplicity sake. If every vote is counted towards the majority then all we have to do is look at the poll result percentages to see if an option got 50% or more of the vote.

I don't think that abstain should be counted as long as the poll includes all possible options.

Difficult to list them all - how would we do that in when should we? type polls. Also, the more options a poll has the greater the chance there will be no majority decision. But see below.

I think some energy is wasted trying to apply a particular meaning to "abstain". A simpler solution would be to consider two separate poll options:

- "None of the above" which would be counted and could prevent one of the other options from winning (whether the poll was majority or plurality based).
- "Observing, but not voting" which would not be counted and would simply be a way for people to show they were paying attention, but that they lacked a preference.

Whether either or both options would be included on a poll seems a question best left to the poll creator.

This is the best solution presented so far - but I would not make it optional. Even in polls with simple yes / no questions there can be reasons for voting none of the above. Say the poll is private and you think it should be public (or vice-versa). Say the poll is put up during a holiday and given a one day duration so the pollster can slide something in quick before everyone gets a chance to vote. There is always the possibility that someone will object to a poll for some reason. Give that person the chance to vote against the poll - make the none of the above option madatory.

I think we might want to consider an initiative that goes something like this:

No poll shall be binding if it does not include the following two options:

- None of the above (votecounted towards determination of poll winner)
- Abstain (vote not be counted towards determination of poll winner)

So, how many characters can there be in a poll option?
 
I'm still in favor of having someone look at the poll and deciding if it is bogus or real. If it's bogus, it can just be closed and a real poll opened in its place.

Assuming the poll is real, then the highest number of votes for a real option should prevail unless stated otherwise by the originator.

It is valid for "none of the above" to be a real option in a real poll. If it wins the poll, then we don't do anything.

It should not be mandatory to include either abstain or "none of the above".

Abstain should never be counted in the results.
 
I agree with DaveShack.

And to be fair a poll must cover all possible answers to the question.

(For instance,I can only ask when to do this, if before was decided to do it).

Best regards,
 
You don't sound rude at all. You're absolutely right but what you say applies only to poll questions that have only two mutually exclusive and all encompassing options that are present as vote options. In other words for a poll question like should we declare war on Alexander on turn 39? with options of yes, no and abstain.

You are right there, in that type of poll you don't need the abstain option at all. And by not having it you cannot count the abstain votes towards another poll option altogether.
 
Hoping this doesn't make me lose any votes, as this doesn't pertain to my office:

My argument for not counting an abstain vote is that by abstaining you choose not to take part in the poll. You are removing yourself from such poll, so why should abstain count when tallying up vote percentages? Counting the abstain vote is making it act like a Ralph Nator. All it does is take away percentage votes from each side, sometimes one side more heavily then the next.
 
'Abstain' is generally seen as, according to the current votes in the poll, synonymous with the latter of your two options... Donsig seems to disagree



Incidentally, I'm surprised no one's voted to 'abstain' yet... I guess everyone actually has an opinion on this issue?
Because of what this poll is about voting abstain would mean u want abstain in so you would just vote to keep abstain.
 
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