The step up from Noble to Prince

[mystyfly]

Founding 3 religions doesn't benefit you much more than 1 religion

Well there is a case where this may be useful, but its very situational. All those civs on an island which is left entirely without any religioin are backwards. They cant build Monasteries, Temples, have smaller happy caps, have no vote in the AP and usually fight eachother.

 

[Hammurbabble]

OK, trying to learn a different opening, I dropped back a difficulty level to Noble, took the Carthaginians, and went straight for Bronze Working (very easy because they start with Mining). Hannibal's Charismatic helped with the happiness problem pre-Monarchy. Same building sequence as always, Warrior, Worker, Settler, Stonehenge (while second city makes another Settler).

Someone eventually tossed Buddhism my direction and at about 1300 ad it's now my state religion, running Theocracy (because I'm building an army). I was down to 20% tech for a while, back up to 60% now with multiple Courthouses and Markets, cranking out Knights and getting ready to stomp some Khmer butt.

Thing is, it's a lower diff than I usually play, and I lucked out with no fewer than four gold tiles, two in my capital's FC and two for other cities. With my old strat, on Prince and without the gold, I'd be running 80% tech. So I'm still missing something. I could have clobbered someone earlier but there was room to peacefully expand as far as my economy would allow anyway, so no need.

BTW, a couple of disagreements. I see nothing wrong with using minor cheats like saving/reloading, especially in the early game where one stupid mistake or stroke of bad luck can destroy what could have been a fun game otherwise. I sometimes do the same thing if I have a force about to attack a barb town that I think probably will be capable of taking it but I'm not sure, to see if I want to go ahead and go for it or wait until I get another unit or two down there.

Yes, rapid expansion like the settler rush in the early game is resource intensive and I've never gone into full missionary mode until after I've settled all the cities I can up front. Missionaries are for when you have 6-8 cities already, and you need the extra cash so you can build a good army.

When I say "all the buildings I need," I don't mean every building I could possibly build. I also don't mean buildings I don't have the tech for yet. Obviously in the early game I don't have factories or universities built.

I disagree that having enough units for deterrence = being ready to go on the warpath. It's not even a question of having a big army built beforehand. You need to have at least two cities, usually three, ready to crank out units non-stop, one or two for attack units and the third for garrison/stack defense. Also, there's the question of being able to keep and administer the conquest once you've got it, unless you're planning to do the scorched earth routine, which I don't usually like to do. With war weariness, periods when defense outweighs offense, and the economic penalty for big empires, the game seems to reward a peace-war rhythm, rather than constant war. For me anyway.

I do agree that using the same strategy every time gets old, and also I know I'm not making the best use of some civs. That's why this thread was kind of interesting to me, in that the OP uses the same strat I do, and I've considered the possibility it won't work on higher DL, at least not for most civs.

 

[gopher666]

I do agree that using the same strategy every time gets old, and also I know I'm not making the best use of some civs. That's why this thread was kind of interesting to me, in that the OP uses the same strat I do, and I've considered the possibility it won't work on higher DL, at least not for most civs.

Mmm. I've definitely discovered that my usual strategy is a Failboat set out to sea on Prince and higher levels. FWIW, my last few games (after trying to follow a few of the ideas here) have been better, although still not great.

 

[mystyfly]

Hammurbabble, can you post a savegame? You may start a game on a higher diff and play till, say, 1AD/1000AD and upload a save so I can give you tips.

How come you had Theocracy so early? Oracle?

If you want to rush an enemy with Axes/Chariots/even Swords then you only need to found one city, which grabbs the ressource you need (Copper/Horse). First build there is a Barracks (forego the Monument if the ressource is in the inner 8 tiles). After the Barracks are done, the ressource should be hooked up and you can start building units. The capital also produces units as soon as the ressource is hooked up.
With Swords you have to be very careful. One, you settle next to your ressource late, meaning the AI might have grabbed it already and you face higher cultural defenses in cities. So you might want to consider waiting for catapults. Drawback is that you're left with very few cities for a long time.

You shouldn't settle more than 2 cities (cap + ress city) if you plan to rush because of the maintenance. Once your war begins you pay for your army as well (and sometimes pretty much - check F2). You should only keep Capitals and Holy cities, all other cities should be razed, to keep your economy alive. You can resettle well-placed cities later.

 

[Hammurbabble]

Mystyfly, one thing that's become clear to me is that you and I have totally different play styles. You talk about an early rush as if it's a given, but the only time I EVER do that is if I'm stuck without enough territory because some AI has moved in and cut me off.

For one thing, I always play on large continental maps -- never small ones, and never pangaea. So rushing isn't really a winning strategy except situationally, and then only to get you a start you could get peacefully if someone wasn't in the way. It's literally impossible on a continents map to win the game before the Renaissance, and practically speaking you can't do it before the Industrial Age. (The only way you could theoretically win in the Renaissance is to use caravelles to take missionaries to the other continent, make sure everyone has your religion, and get a diplomatic victory in the AT, but I'd be surprised if anyone's actually done that.)

Barring a situation where I'm cramped and have to go to war early, or defensive wars fought against some warmonger who starts it, my only combat before the Middle Ages is against barbs. If I do get jumped early by a warmonger, I don't make it a fight to the finish. I beat back his assault and maybe take one or two cities, then as soon as possible I make peace. My big aggressive wars happen using Knights and upgrading them through cavalry, then again using tanks, and maybe a last one using modern army and mech infantry, depending on the situation. I usually win space race or diplomatic. Only once each have I ever won a C4 game domination or conquest, the domination victory was a total surprise because I was thoroughly kicking butt with my tanks, and the conquest happened because I turned off all other victory conditions just to see what the conquest end-game looked like. (I've never done culture victory either, I'll have to try that some time.)

You see what I'm saying here? I have my doubts that your advice would help me much, because it would be tailored to a game I don't really want to play.

As for how I got theocracy, someone usually offers me that tech in trade, it's not uncommon to have it by 1400. And it's great for building a kickass army of course.

 

[Sisiutil]

For one thing, I always play on large continental maps -- never small ones, and never pangaea...

You see what I'm saying here? I have my doubts that your advice would help me much, because it would be tailored to a game I don't really want to play.

Interesting; this information makes your approach to the game make more sense, now.

How many civs do you have on those maps? I play on standard sized maps myself, where the early rush usually works quite well. When I do occasionally try out a large map, I usually add a couple of civs--otherwise, I find there's just too much empty space that keeps the game from being interesting. To each their own, of course.

I'm not an expert at your play style, but if you want to keep following it at the higher levels, you may need to incorporate other economic techniques in addition to attempting to found and spread a religion. A trade route economy could be useful, especially if you have coastal cities (a coastal capital in particular) and manage to build the Great Lighthouse and/or the Temple of Artemis. Mind you, at the higher levels, pursuing wonders is potentially as risky as founding a religion, so you may just be trading one set of unachievable challenges for another. As with so many things in this game, it depends on the situation.

Another thing you may want to consider is a careful choice of leaders. The first couple of times I play at a higher difficulty level, I often choose a leader (Julius Caesar and Elizabeth being my two favourites) whose characteristics I know how to exploit optimally. You may want to do the same. Since you play and early REX strategy, traits such as Imperialistic (for faster Settlers) or Expansive (for faster Workers) may be useful (Joao of Portugal has both those traits). Creative might be handy to claim more of that open space quickly and reduce barb incursions. Financial can be a bit of a crutch. I'd be tempted to try a Philosophical leader and run a specialist or hybrid economy.

And I'd avoid civs with an early UU, as they'll be wasted in your play style. The regular classical era units can thump barbs just fine. Sounds like you'd be better off with medieval, renaissance, or even modern era UUs--something that's available around the time your borders finally start fighting for elbow room with someone else's.

Then again, Gilgamesh or Shaka might be well-suited to your play style because they each have an early UB that helps with city maintenance. The Sumerian Ziggurat (a courthouse that's available with Priesthood) and the Zulu Ikhanda (a barracks that also reduces city maintenance by 20%) will both help you expand. Shaka has the Expansive trait I mentioned earlier, while Gilgamesh has a UU that can handle almost anything the early-era barbs throw at you.

I hope some of this helps!

 

[mystyfly]

@Hammurbabble
This thread is about going from Noble to Prince. I probabely went too far, I wrote down some thoughts about going to a higher difficulty. There will be the time when you find yourself losing to the AI. In gophers case, its Prince. So I gave some general advice. In the game he posted, an early rush wasn't possible (no neighbour) but if there was one, this AI would be way ahead of everyone else. If you have rivals nearby, you either have to rush or to REX. If you do neither, you'll be left with too few land. This is why you lose games: you have too few land. Now I just pointed out how to get land. And how to sustain an economy in this age.

I don't play large maps because my Laptop can't handle them.
I don't remember talking about winning in the Renaissance Era.

I don't play wondermongerer games or very peaceful either. I'm just peaceful as long as I have place to expand (usually ). I can't give you advice on your playstyle then. But every win is easier with more land, land you can get by REXing or an early rush.

 

[agc28]

@ Orig poster

im emperor-level player. heres my advice.

a. why did you build the shroo-something-paya when you founded a religion? seems very counterproductive. founding a religion will allow you to pursue the religious civics.

b. you never finished occupying your continent...you should have occupied 80% of it before 1 AD. 2 of your current cities are new?! you expand too slowly. Open up world builder and see how Spain occupied her entire continent.

c. why are your workers roading to the south? thats the funniest thing i've ever seen.

d. so why does your capital have the lighthouse? you aren't working any water tiles.

e. you are isolated. why did you even bother researching drama, feudalism (u dont need longbow..no one will attack you), theology (what good is this? building the AP is useless if you are isolated, and it looks like you didn't found a religion researching this, and you dont need theocracy since you dont need an army), alphabet (do you need spies? no. are you trading techs? no.), code of laws (not founding a religion. only built 2 courthouses, saving you exactly 3 gold per turn. and you had only 4 cities up until 1500AD.), machinery (eh..why do you have this? you can't build crossbow man without any strategic resource).

f. its 1580 AD and in 30 turns, you are about to have iron... thats something I get at 1580BC, to wipe out barbs, if you are isolated.

g. why do you need islamic monastery? (are you missionary spamming? no. do you need the culture? no. do you need the +10% science? no. you built it in cities with 14 beakers per turn.

h. stop building improvements.

i. you failed to build the great library.

j. skip all the useless techs. your tech path should be like this:

Ignore Pyramids.
Research pottery while building Oracle > (take Metal casting as a free tech)
Writing > aesthetics, literature > Great Library in your science city. (you built the pyramids but not GL..thats stupid. and you are running a cottage economy. so why did you build the pyramids???)
Great Prophet > (if you do have one, use it to lightbulb theology to get another religion. why did you settle them in your capital?)
Great Scientist > lightbulb philosophy.

then

Code of Laws > Civil Service > Bureaucracy > Compass > Optics >

Start amassing caravels in coastal cities. Load them with your missionaries. Go abroad.

at this time, amass maceman and catapults in your inland cities. (you need machinery. skip engineering. but u need construction.)

Paper > Education > Liberalism > take astronomy as your free tech.

Amass 30 galleons. Load your force. you should have at least 40 macemen and at least 40 catapults by the time you discover astronomy. Attack the closest civ you discovered.

Next, research Nationalism and build Taj Ma-something. Stop your reseach after this, until the war is over and the civ becomes your vassal.

if you do everything correctly, you should be able to vassalize someone by 1200AD.

ignore markets theaters and all those useless things. use them to build maceman.

 

[elmerrietveld]

My general advice: read the ALC carefully, and you will master monarch in no-time.

Other general advice: use leader traits, whip, plan aggressively towards you nearest neighbours, learn your building and tech options by heart