...the stuff that legends are made of

Originally posted by GuangRong
These "tribute missions" as the experdition were called are not profitiable at all and are causing a drain on the ming's resources.

The Ming gives Far more valuable goods than the tribute they recieve. Why do you think Zheng he and his Armada was welcome with open arms in places that know them ?

Freebies !!!
Very true. The Chinese emperor wanted the prestige of being the Son of Heaven, the ruler of All Under Heaven (tianxia). The foreigners were happy to give him this recognition in exchange for the lavish return gifts. Esp since Chinese power didn't afffect things much in farway places, except during the rare times when China was feeling muscular.

The tribute system probably wasn't that costly to maintain. However the army was; as a large standing army was needed to watch over the steppes.
 
Originally posted by Tassadar
But eunuch were burocrate so they were involve in political desicion, so i was right again, are you jalous or what about my knowledge.
Wrong again! The eunuchs are not bureaucrats; they are the personal retainers who look after the personal affairs of the imperial family and the inner palace. They are very close to the emperor and imperial family and hence thru the ages, are entrusted with important tasks. Haven't you read my above posts??? :rolleyes:

If chinese were not so illogical, they would have rule the entire world today, i am sorry for you, realy realy sorry.
Illogical? Only idiots will try to rule the world using Middle Ages technology; even America today cannot fully do it. Besides the Chinese already had their hands very full, dealing with the nomadic tribes fr the steppes.
 
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
They are very close to the emperor and imperial family and hence thru the ages, are entrusted with important tasks. Haven't you read my above posts??? :rolleyes:

Illogical? Only idiots will try to rule the world using Middle Ages technology; even America today cannot fully do it. Besides the Chinese already had their hands very full, dealing with the nomadic tribes fr the steppes.

If eunuch are so close to emperor and entrusted with important task then it mean they have political power, for me it is equal to modern burocrate which are able to influence on politic. I dont think i WRONG AGAIN like you said. Are you stubborn or what.

And how do you think Christoph Colomb reach america, with steam boat:lol: no he use medieval technology, but he had testicle so he had testosterone in his blood, so he had the guts to use a wooden ship to cross sea.
 
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon


Besides the Chinese already had their hands very full, dealing with the nomadic tribes fr the steppes.

Chritoph colomb reach america with 3 wooden boat and may be a few hundred man so you dont need to send the entire army to explore and start colonisation on america and thus later on rule the world. i hope you understand that.
 
Originally posted by Tassadar


If eunuch are so close to emperor and entrusted with important task then it mean they have political power, for me it is equal to modern burocrate which are able to influence on politic. I dont think i WRONG AGAIN like you said. Are you stubborn or what.

Modern bureaucrats do not just have power. Read Max Weber to know more about what it means to be a "bureaucrat". If you are unwilling, here's a brief run down that shows that eunuchs are not bureaucrats... It is generally accepted that:

- Bureaucrats attain their position by merit, most notably by knowledge. (Not eunuchs, who were brought into the service very early in life)
- The head of bureaucrats reaches his/her position by promotions, and the position is typically a socially respected one - even elitist in nature. (Not eunuchs - eunuchs are normally ridiculed in society. Exceptional cases nothwithstanding)
- They do a lot of filing and paperwork. (Not eunuchs - most of them aren't even literate)
- Bureaucrats legimitise their power by knowledge/expertise. (Not eunuchs, who by definition should not have power in the first place, hence any power they wield indicates corruption in the power system)


And how do you think Christoph Colomb reach america, with steam boat:lol: no he use medieval technology, but he had testicle so he had testosterone in his blood, so he had the guts to use a wooden ship to cross sea.

What has THAT got to do with it? Don't insult eunuchs. They literally gave their manhood to the job - be it for intentions of power, act of loyalty, for survival, or sheer belief in their social system. Even Samurais can't boast this deep a devotion to a cause.
 
Thank you Reboot for your deeper information.

I didnt want to insult chinese in my first post about it, i just wanted to show how powerfull were chinese 's naval before christoph colomb time. Chinese shipe were much bigger,armored and stable then europeen caravel, but they lost this knowledge because of politics ( eunuch,emperor,ming or whatever ).

So chinese had a historical chance to discover and colonize america well before europeen but they didnt because of bad political decision. I dont think i am saying stupidity here ? right ?

This killroy put me in a very bad mood with his post, i just want to share and perfect my knowledge and i got :spank: .
 
Here an adress i found to support some of my point, this eunuch was a diplomat and a naval admiral.

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa020201a.htm


Am i so ignorant or BS. look at the size of their shipe, amazing.


Edit; i saw my mistake, it was emperor desicion to stop ship building not eunuch desicion, you know it is a small memory mistake i did, i am sincerly sorry for all eunuch in the world.:lol:
 
Originally posted by Kilroy


Every time you post, Tassadar, I wish I didn't have eyes. It's getting to the point where I'm considering tearing them out just so I don't have to read anymore of this...

I just wish you wouldn't run around talking about how you know everything about: computer programming, data structures, chinese history, civilization 3, analytical chemistry or whatever subject you're claiming to have advanced degrees in today, graphic design, human physiology, psychology, forensics, you name it - when it's obvious you know nothing about: computer programming, data structures, chinese history, civilization 3, analytical chemistry or whatever subject you're claiming to have advanced degrees in today, graphic design, human physiology, psychology, forensics, you name it.


So kilroy, what do you think now, does this diplomat/naval admiral/eunuch was a great leader like i said ? me i said yes

So kilroy do you think china had the chance to colonize america before christoph colomb ? me i said yes

So kilroy do china stop building ship and sea exploration because of political desicion ? me i said yes

So kilroy my only mistake was to say that it was eunuch fault, but it was emperor decision to stop sea exploration, i hope we will be friend again, i like to perfect my knowledge, but i dont like to have ennemy.
 
Originally posted by Tassadar
If eunuch are so close to emperor and entrusted with important task then it mean they have political power, for me it is equal to modern burocrate which are able to influence on politic. I dont think i WRONG AGAIN like you said. Are you stubborn or what.
You may be astounded to learn that the Chinese invented the bureaucracy. ;) Mainly because they invented the paper first. :) However in olden China, the bureaucracy was staffed by Confucian scholars i.e. the mandarins. Eunuchs may be the personal agents of the emperor but the bureaucracy runs the day-to-day govt affairs.

In a standard imperial govt, they usually have the six Boards (war, civil service, rites, public works, punishment and one more I can't recall right now). These Boards are all staffed by the Confucians, who are usually at odds with the eunuchs whom they dislike greatly. Do not mistaken the bureaucrats with the eunuchs. Usually the emperors keep both sides in check but when weak emperors rule, power intrigues will be the order of the day as the two groups play palace politics.

And how do you think Christoph Colomb reach america, with steam boat:lol: no he use medieval technology, but he had testicle so he had testosterone in his blood, so he had the guts to use a wooden ship to cross sea.
Colombus was driven by greed for the riches of India and the Far East. The Chinese were already pretty well-off and had no reason to venture anywhere else. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
You know, historically, the main weakness of the Chinese armies is in the lack of enough horses to form a large enough cavalry force to face down the nomads fr the north.

What do you think now? if you took time to read my previous reference you will notice that china had plenty of horse( they had specialised ship for horse transportation) so ????

Edit; sorry knight dragon i didnt say your previous post ( friendly), i look on defense now and i counter attack the veracity of your previous post.
 
Originally posted by Tassadar
I didnt want to insult chinese in my first post about it, i just wanted to show how powerfull were chinese 's naval before christoph colomb time. Chinese shipe were much bigger,armored and stable then europeen caravel, but they lost this knowledge because of politics ( eunuch,emperor,ming or whatever ).
Believe me, I know. Esp the 'treasure ships'; these were as large as the European clippers of a few centuries later. Each of the Ming expedition was large; one that I know of consisted of 28000 men, something unheard of in those days. Large enough they could go out and attk insolent kinglets all over Asia. E.g. in Ceylon they attked the local king and brought him back to China for 'punishment' for refusing to recognize Chinese authority.

So chinese had a historical chance to discover and colonize america well before europeen but they didnt because of bad political decision. I dont think i am saying stupidity here ? right ?
Like I'd said, the Mongols were beginning to stir again in the steppes. The Chinese needed all the resources they had to deal with them. And their xenophobic attitude probably didn't help. It was a missed chance; like earlier during the Southern Song (the pinnacle of Chinese maritime strength). Were it not for the Mongol 'century', I think the Chinese would probably not turned their back on the sea.
 
Originally posted by Tassadar
What do you think now? if you took time to read my pervious reference you will notice that china had plenty of horse( they had specialised ship for horse transportation) so ????
Not enough. The numbers might seem large but they weren't enough, esp when the Chinese lost control of the North-west (the Lop Nor region). Like during the Song, the Tanguts settled in this region and set up the Xixia kingdom, cutting off the Chinese fr their traditional stud farms here. Resulting in the shift towards infantry for the Song armies. They couldn't even take back the 16 prefectures around Beijing lost to the Khitans. And when the Jurchens arrived, they even managed to sweep down and sack the imperial capital at Kaifeng and capture most of the imperial court.

The Chinese armies needed horses in the hundreds of thousands if they're to meet the nomadic threat. Even then, it was tough to break the nomads, unless you have the help of one faction of the nomads (i.e. divide and rule).

The nomads were born horsemen. The average Chinese soldier could never hope to match them. You don't seem to realise just how dangerous these nomads were, esp in the tens of thousands. Their mobility was legendary.
 
Originally posted by Reboot
Say, you're quite close to me geographically, aren't you, Knight-Dragon?
Where are you, exactly? Can't tell fr the coordinates. :)

:eek: I'm curiously left out "religious". The Chinese, despite not being really all that religious, nonetheless have one of the most resilient cultures. In CivIII game terms, I think of it as lots of flipping...

;) So, the Chinese really poses a problem to CivIII rules.
I don't think us Chinese are or were so religious. Mainly due to Confucianism, we have more of an ethical system, rather than an organised religion. Of course there's the folklore and customs and also Daoism/Buddhism but....

Speaking of which, now is the Chinese ghost month, the 7th month, isn't it? :eek: Have to burn paper money and stuff.
 
Knight dragon

Yes those invader were a very serious threat, that s why the great wall was for. But i am sure if chinese decide to sail, unsteed of defended it, then one of your explorer would have find america before europeen. Then you keep that top secret, make alliance with europeen crusader and attack on 2 front those invader. So while you wage war with an ally against a know liar and cheater, you are able to colonize a new continent, and thus stoping europeen genocide on amerindian citizen.
 
The real world does not work like Civ3, unfortunately. :)

For one, the typical emperor doesn't live for 6000 years and many are just lazy. Many too are typical despots and are wary of Chinese settlements overseas, which can serve as centers for discontent, since such colonies will be hard to control.

The Ming Great Wall was an acknowledgement of weakness and failure, rather than of strength. It was only decided to build it after the repeated Ming expeditions into the steppes failed to do any permanent damage to the Mongols. It took another foreign tribe, the Manchus, to pacify the Mongols and the industrial revolution to finally finish them off....
 
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
The real world does not work like Civ3, unfortunately. :)

For one, the typical emperor doesn't live for 6000 years and many are just lazy. Many too are typical despots and are wary of Chinese settlements overseas, which can serve as centers for discontent, since such colonies will be hard to control.

The Ming Great Wall was an acknowledgement of weakness and failure, rather than of strength. It was only decided to build it after the repeated Ming expeditions into the steppes failed to do any permanent damage to the Mongols. It took another foreign tribe, the Manchus, to pacify the Mongols and the industrial revolution to finally finish them off....

Yes lack of world wide consciousness from all human leader is a major brick in the wall to evolution.
 
Originally posted by Tassadar
...But i am sure if chinese decide to sail, unsteed of defended it, then one of your explorer would have find america before europeen.

Probably. As Knight-Dragon said, the real world does not work like Civ3 :), so there is no way to "reload" the Ming Dynasty and figure out if the Chinese had a better chance finding America first. At least I won't be as sure as Tassadar is about this point, stuff happens.

Then you keep that top secret, make alliance with europeen crusader and attack on 2 front those invader. So while you wage war with an ally against a know liar and cheater, you are able to colonize a new continent, and thus stoping europeen genocide on amerindian citizen. [/QUOTE]

Gotta disagree with that... Chinese were not known as invaders (thanks to Confucius:)). They did think they're the center of "the world", and the emperors were kings of "the world", however, the emperors did not tend to pick on their neighbors as long as they receive the tribute and respect. Chinese did not even colonize nor genocide. If they did, Japs, Koreans, and the entire southeast Asia were all history. IMHO, even though Chinese found America first, they probably would have left America the way it was.
 
Knight-Dragon, 1.17N 103.50E = Singapore. And yes, its the 7th Month again.

By "religious" I refer purely to the culture-aspect of the game.

In CivIII, the ruler is all-powerful in policy setting. This is not like the real world at all.
 
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