The Tao of Warmongering

Chipwich

Chieftain
Joined
Sep 19, 2010
Messages
5
Can anyone give me the lowdown on what the Warmongering rules are post-balance patch? I know that different civs have different tolerances and warmongering now increases exponentially, but I'd like to have a good enough understanding to know when my next city takeover will make everyone hate me.

On my mind right now: In the past, taking a city state by force counted as civ extermination. Is that still true?

Is warmongering worse for neighbors?
 
I have made a similar but a bit more general thread with this, here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=511689

I believe that killing of a CS causes everyone to hate you. On a similar note, what surprised me in my recent game, was that when I was at war with the Germans, I took one city without any problems. The tooltip said I would get a minor diplomatic hit. Then, I go and take their capital and even though the tooltip said I would again take a minor diplo hit, Portugal denounced me shortly afterwards. I had a DoF with them, and before the denouncement, the negative modifier about warmongering was not showing up at all on the diplomacy screen with them.
 
Seems out of whack to me. In my last game Poland was massacring England and France, taking cities in both of their empires. I join them in battle against Poland, they both have DoF's with me. I take Krakow and England denounces me. It just doesn't make sense. At least Napoleon is cool with me as he forgives warmongering.
 
Seems out of whack to me. In my last game Poland was massacring England and France, taking cities in both of their empires. I join them in battle against Poland, they both have DoF's with me. I take Krakow and England denounces me. It just doesn't make sense. At least Napoleon is cool with me as he forgives warmongering.

It is out of whack. There is no accounting for sensibility in the AI's diplo calculations regarding warmongering. Too much of it is just built-in knee-jerk automated (and pretty brainless) coding (you're my friend, you're helping me against a hated enemy who is slaughtering me and I desperately need your help with, yet I will hate you completely for doing it because I am programmed to HATE all 'warmongers'!) This is just wrong, and is pretty sloppy work on Firaxis' part.
 
Putmalk posted a very good thread about the math behind warmongering here.

It's important to separate Warmonger Amount and Warmonger Score. Warmonger Amount refers to the amount of warmongering applied when you capture a city. It is equally applied among every civilization, regardless of their personalities or not. Consider it a raw score. It's also the most important, since this is what decays slowly each turn.

Warmonger Score is adjusted for leader's personality. This is what WarmongerHate modifies. This is also the final score that determines how an AI civilization views you. This score is used to determine the opinion weight, which, if you don't remember from previous posts, is the combination of +/- diplomatic modifiers that add up to an opinion score (hidden from the player at all times).

Without further ado, the formula for warmonger calculations:

Warmonger Amount
  • City Capture: (1000 * est_num_cities) / (actual_num_cities * victim_num_cities)
  • Declaration of War: 250

A few notes:
est_num_cities refers to estimated num of cities on the map. This changes based on map size, see below:
  • Map Size Value
  • Duel 13
  • Tiny 26
  • Small 39
  • Standard 52
  • Large 80
  • Huge 132

actual_num_cities refers to the total number of cities on the map. This doesn't matter if you can see them or not, it pulls it straight from the game data.

victim_num_cities refers to the number of cities the victim has before city deletion (so, consider the captured city to be a part of that). If the civ has 3 cities, then 2 when captured, use 3. I'm pretty confident in this one, city deletion occurs after the warmonger calculations.


The warmonger amount is applied to every civilization that you've met. As the beta patch notes said, if you capture a city, divide by two if that civilization is at war with the same civilization that you've conquered from. The warmonger calculations are only applied in the event of player conquest of another civilization's city. You do NOT get warmonger points for capturing a city you previously owned (i.e. one you settled yourself), receiving cities as gifts, or city-state buyouts.

WarmongerAmount decays at a rate of 5 per turn.


Imagine you're in the Classical Era and you capture a city on Standard. Assume there are 33 cities on the map at the time (city-states seem to be included!). Capturing a city from a civilization with 4 cities would look like:
(1000 * 52) / (33 * 4) = 393. My current warmonger score from that city alone is 393. Seems high, right? Well, we have to adjust it.

Warmonger Score

  • Warmonger Score = WarmongerAmount * WarmongerHate / 1000

Warmonger Score is the adjusted value, which is what's actually used for diplomacy. To calculate, multiply our WarmongerAmount by a leader's WarmongerHate and divide by 100. In the source code, the developers stated the average warmonger hate is 5, so this results in a value roughly 1/20th of the warmonger amount. Using our previous example on a leader with warmongerHate of 5, we see: 393 * 5 / 100 = 19.
Therefore, capturing that city in the Classical Era will result in a warmonger score of 19. That's pretty high. Compare to denouncements, which are scored at 35.
Here are a few other examples, with leaders with different warmongerHates:
  • WarmongerHate Warmonger Score
  • 3 11
  • 4 15
  • 5 19
  • 7 27
I'm sure you get the point. WarmongerHate greatly affects how much your warmongering will piss off other civs.
In addition to opinions, there is also warmonger threat values, which also dictate other diplomacy options (for example when leaders plan coop wars with other leaders, or World Congress vote choice scores). These thresholds are as follows:
  • Type WarmongerScore
  • Critical >=200
  • Severe >=100
  • Major >=50
  • Minor >=20
These thresholds are updated every turn. You can view these thresholds in the opinion table. These are:
  • Threat Text
  • Critical They fear your warmongering will soon sink the world into a new Dark Age!
  • Severe They believe your warmongering has become an issue of global prominence.
  • Major They clearly see the potential threat posed by your warmongering.
  • Minor They have some early concerns about your warmongering.
These values are logged and you may check them at any time by enabling logging (and AI logging) in config.ini and checking the MyDocuments/Civ 5/Logs folder at any time.
I should also point out that this process is reversed for liberation. So if you liberate a city from a player (instead of annex/puppeting it) you will receive negative credit, which is good.
edit: flipped the signs on the critical threat to make it easier to understand.
 
Wait, according to Putmalk, declaration of war gives Warmongering Amount = 250 and even a (max?) score of 10 Warmonger Hate yields a Warmonger Score of 2.5.

Warmonger Score = WarmongerAmount * WarmongerHate / 1000
2.5 = 250 * 10 / 1000

Denouncement at Warmonger Score = 35

So, basically I can declare war on City-States/Civilizations w/o impunity in the beginning and cripple them by hoarding their unescorted settlers/workers and ravaging their land. Does this mean I can cruise through victory w/o denouncements?
 
There was a typo in the equation, it is divided by 100 as can be seen lower down. So declaration leads to a Max score of 25.
 
Back
Top Bottom