The tech tree is silly

[Wulf38]

I was baffled in my most recent game to see that on turn 200 (standard speed), one of the AIs was in the information age and had mechanized infantry, while myself and the rest of the AIs were all still industrial. I took a closer look at the tech tree trying to figure out how this could happen, and here's what I found.

To train a mechanized infantry, the strongest infantry unit in the game, you only need 24/68 (35%) of the techs in the tree. Here's an incomplete list of techs that you DON'T need to train a mechanized infantry:

Mining, Wheel, Bronze Working, Iron Working, Construction, Engineering, Machinery, Gunpowder, Metal Casting, Ballistics, Rifling, Steel, Replaceable Parts, Combustion.

This barely even qualifies as a tech tree, it's just a bunch of parallel lines without cross-dependencies between them.

For contrast, I started up Civ 4 and clicked on the techs you need to train a mechanized infantry in that game, Robotics and Rifling. It highlighted 57/92 (62%) of the tree. Of the 35 techs you don't need, 11 are purely cultural/civic/religious techs that wouldn't exist in the Civ 6 tech tree.

I hope this gets completely revamped in future patches. The tech tree has already been done well at least once before in the series, it should be possible to do it well again.

 

[TruthfulCake]

Yeah the tech tree needs some reevaluation. The jumps between eras are too quick right now. Thankfully, despite the potential for beelining, we don't have overwhelmingly superior techs like in Civ 5 (Writing, Philosophy, Education). But the lack of relation between the items in the tree is certainly something that bugs me too.

 

[CoconutTank]

I imagine having to divide the tech tree in two probably contributed a lot to this effect. They've got civic centric names now, but I imagine stuff like Recorded History and Games and Recreation could've all been in the science tree once upon a time.

I do appreciate being able to research in parallel though (science tree and civic tree). Civ6 is much faster than Civ5 and this is actually a positive aspect for me. Hopefully in the near future, Firaxis can fill in some of the spaces between the techs.

 

[Helmling]

It reminds me of the tech tree from Civ Rev. In fact, a lot of elements in this game do. The way you can race down a particular line on the tree and ignore tons of technologies. I remember in CivRev launching my spaceship without having learned things like masonry or whatever.

 

[Becephalus]

Yeah the tech tree is frankly garbage. A huge step back and something that really hampers the game compared to previous iterations.

I started going back and teching things just because I felt dumb otherwise.

I have been a pretty big defender of this game, but this is one of the weak points. not a super important one, but something that is easy to fix and where it si confusing how they didn't see it coming.

 

[Biz_]

the tech tree is just 3 lines
the civic tree is just 1 line

but that's still better than making it 1 giant line

the whole point of a tree is so that you can branch out in different games so that it's not always the same thing every time
adding more dependencies just makes it more of a tech line instead of a tech tree

it's a game. i don't really care about the order in which real civilization developed

 

[Bad Wolf]

I agree that the tech tree needs a serious rethink. There are too many ways to rush technologies, in ways that makes zero sense. For just one example, you can get Guidance Systems without Computers. Um... ok? What exactly are these "systems" then?

Also feel like the unit upgrade paths need to be rethought. Having knights around well into the modern era (until the upgrade to tanks) is just silly. They should be able to upgrade to cavalry. Musketmen should be able to upgrade to riflemen, etc.

 

[Onii-chan]

Yeah I oftentimes see the AI being like 2 eras ahead of me on the tech tree, but when I take a look at the science ranking, we're still on about the same number of techs researched and similar science per turn outputs. Basically the AI just beelines things like crazy, which is honestly kind of unexpected if you ask me, but no it shouldn't be possible to begin with. Like to a certain extent I appreciate it for the sake of diversity but the current tree just takes the idea way too far. Like several times have I seen the AI up at Rocketry or Satellites before having researched Archery (like no joke, you can see it live from the gossip system after all), which is both stupid and incredibly illogical. I think you either need to make more techs dependent on having certain earlier era techs, or having some minimum requirement for every tech like "needs x techs researched" on top of the regular stuff

 

[Emi999]

In one of my games I totally forgot about ranged units and by midgame I had musketmen and knights and archers. I had totally missed the crossbowmen and the cannon updates

My problem with the tech tree is that it's too fast even when you don't invest in science. I literally build no campuses and I still discover teches so quickly that my army gets obsolete while still under production.

But I understand this is a design decision and some people like it. But personally I have the impression of rushing things out too much. I guess it's great for online games?

 

[funkymunky]

I don't think it's such a problem that you can beeline to space tech without having researched things like masonry or construction, but considering that they added this nice little eureka system, they should have made better use of it to encourage players to complete such techs as a way to reduce the cost of learning later techs. So, if a player attempts to just beeline straight to space age techs, they should be severely hampered if they don't complete parts of the tree.

My feeling is that if players don't complete the entire tree for previous eras, all techs from future eras should cost substantially more until those previous eras are completed. So for example, if you haven't researched all classical era techs, then renaissance era and future techs should cost double what they would otherwise (medieval techs can remain the same). If you haven't researched all renaissance era techs, then techs from modern era and beyond should cost double what they do. Or they can make it even more crippling, such that modern techs are doubled, atomic era techs tripled, and so on, so that techs from each future era cost exponentially more. This way we don't have to make the tech tree path force players to have to research everything if they don't want to, but the penalties they incur will discourage beelining such that it will effectively take nearly as long to beeline as to complete the full tree.

On the other hand, the OP makes a good point about some techs not having the correct prereqs. It should seem reasonable that mech infantry should require the rifling tech (how can mech infantry shoot guns if rifling technology is unknown?), steel (they need that for armor, don't they?) & combustion (they are mechanized, right?), so being able to skip those sounds ridiculous and I don't see how the devs wound up missing that.

 

[King Jason]

So the concept of doing a tech tree "well" means that you have to progress in a restricted linear pattern? I don't buy it.

You don't like the tree - that doesn't mean it wasn't done well. It just allows for more beelining than ever before which I think offers the players more interesting choices between teaching evenly or going straight for specific goals while making sacrifices in other areas.

Sure, you might be able to get to Mech Infantry without mining - but who would ever make the decision to not learn Mining? It's an incredibly valuable technology. Making it simply mandatory to get into the Information age isn't good design - making the players feel like they could be missing out if they skip a tech is.

Now, in that avenue, I'll grant you, the tree could use some work - as there definitely seem to be a handful of techs that are straight skippable or only researched to get to something else. However, that's an entirely separate weakness than the one you've described.

Whether one needs 60% of the techs to reach a specific tech or 30% of the techs to reach a similarly placed tech is an irrelevant item, and if anything it encourages more decision making, which I can only see as a good thing. Through severe beelining, in one game I noticed I had one without ever researching Archery. This was game where I was just messing around on prince - if I were in MP or on Deity, I would have been punished for neglecting Archery in some form, eventually.

Being allowed to make those trade offs are positives, not negatives.


In terms of theme - who cares if you have a mechanized vehicle without the discovering of rifles? If you can accept the reality that is shaped in game where the Islamic state of the Aztecs puts a man on the moon, you should be able to accept the development of Mechanized infantry without Ballistics.

 

[skyclad]

It feels a bit rushed in general and especially the bee lining can go WAY to deep. The AI only end up hurting himself...
For me the split of science/culture tech is fun but at the same time, we have 2 shallow trees instead of 1 deep and interesting one. Kinda wish they keep the culture tree basic (can even eliminate a few... so many i dont care about) and expand the science tree.

Also this "atomic era" bothers me, it puts too much weight on the end of the tree. Industrial - Modern - Information is more than enough already. Either they flesh out these eras and make the game too "modern era heavy" or they keep them so short you rush through them and it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[Sogno di Volare]

Yeah the tree feels unpolished / unfinished as far as dependencies from tech to tech goes.

Also like V it has an issue is about 3/4ths through I start advancing so quickly that it is hard to keep up with costly upgrades and etc.

 

[Kwami]

In terms of theme - who cares if you have a mechanized vehicle without the discovering of rifles? If you can accept the reality that is shaped in game where the Islamic state of the Aztecs puts a man on the moon, you should be able to accept the development of Mechanized infantry without Ballistics.

Well, no. The Islamic state of Aztecs didn't exist and didn't put a man on the moon. But, had history turned out differently, that could have happened. It wasn't likely to happen, but it was at least possible. Having mechanized infantry without steel and so forth simply doesn't make sense. It's not possible.

 

[Lord Shadow]

Well, no. The Islamic state of Aztecs didn't exist and didn't put a man on the moon. But, had history turned out differently, that could have happened. It wasn't likely to happen, but it was at least possible. Having mechanized infantry without steel and so forth simply doesn't make sense. It's not possible.

Playing devil's advocate a bit, but why not? Armour can be made of iron or other metals, alloys or composites unrelated to steel. Similarly, rifling increased the precision of firearms, but they existed for hundreds of years before the invention of the rifled barrel. Combustion, as in the internal combustion engine, is just one type of engine. A decisive type, but nothing barring the possibility of self-propelled vehicles if left undiscovered.

That scientific discoveries turned out a certain way in real history doesn't necessarily mean the advancement of science is fixed, linear and can't happen in any other way.

 

[Joch]

Players are never happy, CivBE had a Tech Web where you could go in any direction and create some pretty wild variations. There were many threads where players complained they wanted to have linear Tech Tree like in Civ5 which is what we have now.

A linear TechTree is just that, a "linear tech tree" where you move forward in a tunnel with limited choices. Again players are receiving what they ask for.

A Tech Tree is a Tech Tree, there is only so much you could do with it. This one seems fine for this type of game. The Tech Tree is not going to change, so the real question is how do you improve it.

Personally I think it moves too fast, so yes, build time should be re-looked at. Entering the "medieval age" in 600 B.C. is a bit too fast. Maybe there should even be some hard caps, i.e. not being able to enter Classical or Medieval before a certain date.

"Eurekas" also need to be looked at. Currently, there are too many and they give too much of a boost.

To prevent beelining, you could also be forced to build all the techs in a certain age, for example "Ancient" before you can build any "Classical" tech.

 

[Fierro]

The tech tree is one of few reasons why I stopped playing game at this moment. Most technologies look useless if you are not going into military domination. Even if I play agressively, I usually focus on certain type of units. Most of techs are giving literally nothing or unlock new unit that i will never use because it's waste of time to build it. I have to scroll very far from my initial timeline and seach for tech that I would need in future. After I researched it, all of current techs are not useful and I choose whatever is cheaper to fullfill gaps between eras.

I really liked Civ 5 tree in compatison with Civ 6 one. It wasn't very balanced, but it usually was easy to see what you need now. Most of them gave you something that would help developing empire.

 

[manu-fan]

Thanks for that OP. I'll have to try that in my next game. Beeline Mech Infantry and take over the World.

 

[CoconutTank]

Players are never happy, CivBE had a Tech Web where you could go in any direction and create some pretty wild variations. There were many threads where players complained they wanted to have linear Tech Tree like in Civ5 which is what we have now.

A linear TechTree is just that, a "linear tech tree" where you move forward in a tunnel with limited choices. Again players are receiving what they ask for.

A Tech Tree is a Tech Tree, there is only so much you could do with it. This one seems fine for this type of game. The Tech Tree is not going to change, so the real question is how do you improve it.

Personally I think it moves too fast, so yes, build time should be re-looked at. Entering the "medieval age" in 600 B.C. is a bit too fast. Maybe there should even be some hard caps, i.e. not being able to enter Classical or Medieval before a certain date.

"Eurekas" also need to be looked at. Currently, there are too many and they give too much of a boost.

To prevent beelining, you could also be forced to build all the techs in a certain age, for example "Ancient" before you can build any "Classical" tech.

I think you want to be careful with the latter requirement. Norway for example benefits quite a bit from Shipbuilding, and forcing them to go through all of Ancient instead of letting them go Sailing and rush Shipbuilding whenever they want is somewhat detrimental.

I do agree that some of the eurekas/inspirations are a little too easy though. I don't mind Ancient era techs having easy requirements, and I guess I don't really mind Classical era techs having easy requirements either. But stuff like Machinery ("Own 3 Archers") and Apprenticeship ("Build 3 Mines") have really easy eurekas. I'm often getting these particular eurekas well before the Ancient era is over for me. In particular, given how important Archers are for military power in the current state of the game, Machinery might as well always cost half to research for me.

On the other hand, Iron Working actually has a somewhat difficult eureka for me ("Build an Iron Mine"), given that the game likes to cheat me out of strategic resources often. Printing Press is often a must have tech for me too, but the eureka for that ("Build 2 Universities") is also a pain in the ass. And Square Rigging's eureka makes no sense to me ("Kill a unit with a Musketman"). What the heck do muskets have to do with Frigates? I've always had to fully research this tech so far, especially since Gunpowder is along an entirely different line and nearly at the same place as Square Rigging.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

Playing devil's advocate a bit, but why not? Armour can be made of iron or other metals, alloys or composites unrelated to steel.

As pointed out by the OP; you can build Mechanized Infantry without bronze working, iron working, or metal casting.
Good luck constructing and powering such a vehicle with only stone & wood.