The Temple of Artemis

[FlyingSwan]

Its a wonder I never build...for 2 reasons-The great person points pollution-you have a 60% chance of a great prophet and a 40% chance of a great merchant,the second reason is because Ive built it so I don't get the same gold bonus as I would if another civ built it and I send a Great merchant to that city on a trade mission-the AI instead would get the bonus from any trade missions it sends to me.

Im wondering though..combine this with the pyramids and representation on paper and in my head it looks like a beeline build,the same as the great library-with its 2 free scientists.

I guess the Q bieng does anyone use this combo-Mids/ToA?

I play emporer/immortal on occasion,I don't use cooked starts so this eventuality would never happen unless I had stone to build the mids,the chances of having marble as well(as we all know)does,nt usually happen so I guess the ToA would have to be chopped out.

So are the extra trade routes and 3 beakers worth it?

 

[Fippy]

Too many problems with this wonder, like 350h that's very much early.
Or you will only research Poly for the Oracle that early usually, and then you have other stuff to worry about than ToA
Also priests might be the worst free specialist you can get, but you mentioned that already. If they would have made it free merchant + merchant points then more might consider building ToA.

 

[traius]

No, it is not worth it. On all but the bottom levels, it would simply be impossible to get both. On deity it is risky to get the pyramids with stone and chops. To add ToA on top of it would be impossible. It would also just be a bad idea. By going wonders early, you are deciding to not build settlers. The pyramids can be strong enough and game-changing enough to warrant it (though remember, it's a gambit because you'll essentially be forced to quit if you lose the race), but to go after the ToA as well instead of settlers? No, you'd be better off with the settlers.

 

[NihilZero]

It's a very fine build in wonderspam strategies since it gives a lot of GPP. It's not very easy to get though, but then getting those hard-to-get wonders is a big part of the mystical art of wonderspam.

Apart from that, it's completely irrelevant. It really doesn't do anything significant, considering it's supposed to be a "wonder" - shouldn't wonders be wonderful?

Plus if you build it yourself, where are you going to send your Great Merchants for trade missions?

 

[MegaLurker]

I've accidentally built it a few times going for failgold and not reloaded. So it's not all bad

 

[drewisfat]

It's a good wonder, it's just very expensive and the AIs go for it extremely early. I've only ever built it late with marble, where I was assuming I'd get failgold and was pleasantly surprised.

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

It is expensive. It goes pretty early. Together that means it will slow your growth and/or prevent you from building other wonders. In short, far from optimal, bad play. It is, therefore, completely irresistible.

I personally don't think that the 3 beakers from combining it with the Pyramids is all that interesting. I'd much rather combine it with the Great Lighthouse and have more trade routes for it to double. With a good coastal start, that has some friendly neighbors who are dependably open to trading, it can be a strong addition to your empire. Best built in the capital as that tends to have a large population and, under bureaucracy, can give another 50% bonus to the commerce Artemis brings in. Add a harbor, or better yet a Cothon, and revel in the glory of trade income. Bad play has never been so good.

 

[MegaLurker]

Coastal capital with the ToA and the Great Lighthouse on an island-y map would be great, but up to what difficulty level would you be able to get both reliably?

 

[FlyingSwan]

@Mec Antikythera I love the idea of the GLH/ToA combo,and I reckon it would of turned my loss into a win on the immortal/ceaser game Gumbolts just posted.You can tell almost instantly that its a GLH map plus you have marble in the capitol so your forced to tech masonry anyway,dont know why I never thought of it,guess Ive just been too used to never building it.

 

[elmurcis]

This wonder is situational.. But when there are right conditions, its amazing..
GLH + ToA is really strong play on some maps.. But also because of marble, I would pretty much target MoM (prophets are good for GA) and TGL early.. and city with 4 strong trade routes (each oversea trade route with Ai will give 4 or 5 commerce very early), 2 free scientists and 1 priest + National Epic... strong commerce and strong GPP city
/need to get start with marble right now /

 

[FlyingSwan]

@elmuricis-look no further than gumbolts immortal ceaser game,seriously, the map was made for this combo...

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

Coastal capital with the ToA and the Great Lighthouse on an island-y map would be great, but up to what difficulty level would you be able to get both reliably?

Reliably? I don't know. On emperor it can be done, above that I don't know. If you have a religious wonder-builder in your game Artemis usually goes pretty early. Committing to both wonders limits what else you can do, to be sure. You need one or two strong coastal sites, marble, room to expand later (Great Lighthouse won't do you much good without that), civs to trade with. The level you play at will direct how quickly you need Poly, which slows other research.

All this talk, I just had to try it out. Doshin's Angry Bear game has a marble start, it worked for me there, though it isn't the capital that's coastal. On emperor, not tried Immortal yet. Because you can easily block off land it seemed worth slowing early growth for. Now we will see how peaceful Napoleon is feeling, that could be a problem.

 

[blunderwonder]

Like he said, reliably getting toa + other stuff is difficult. Alot of it is because most people dont even bother with poly until theyre going for lit. If your teching it on the way to oracle, youll be later on oracle, and have to trade for med later anyway. Its just not useful enough anyway.

With regards to the "GLH + ToA grandslam" its probably not as effective as people think, because they dont multiply. its like 100% for peace 100% for intercontinental 50% for harbor... that 100% becomes really is only going to add like 1-2 commerce per route max, its probably better to fail it with marble than to actually get it, and if you're sacrificing oracle or glh, its a big fail.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@blunderwonder.I always go polytheism on the way to the oracle these days because it also opens up the trade for monotheism,the two turns you save from teching meditation instead have never seemed a big deal to me.The only times I seem to lose the oracle are if Isabellas about(and if I know she is many times I wont attempt it)or if Im being a little too ambitious and going for civil service as the free tech.

I can see an argument for meditation/priesthood at deity(where all wonders seem to go silly early)but even at immortal the oracle dates seem pretty comparable to me to monarch and emporer-you want to get this wonder before turn 70 normal speed basically.

 

[blunderwonder]

I like to pick up med because its faster and needed for lib, it also opens up monastaries(which i toss in capital) - > PH opens temples. i can see going for poly, but trying to snag GLH and oracle and ToA is a bit crazy, especially when you have to count in worker techs, bw and masonry as well, im sure HOF people have gotten lucky with stuff like that, but your more likely to shoot yourself in the foot trying to land tons of wonders, and i would have no reason to pick up any of them unless im goign for oracle, and even going oracle + toa is a stretch.

As for ToA, getting it means crappier trade missions later in the game, which sucks, and also its argualbe that 300 fail gold to push me through aesthetics or currency is better than an extra 4 commerce + a priest that i dont really want. Its not the worst wonder, but like hagia sophia, some of them are really just there for you to fail on purpose

Im not arguing against toa, i just dont think its useful enough to warrant slowing down the rest of my empire to get it. Plenty of games i crank out workers/settlers with as many chops as I can get, and over rex with crap beakers because i couldnt cottage fast enough, in cases like those I could TOA on industrious with OR and marble, and id still probably rather fail it maybe in more than one city than keep it