The three stooges of the apocalypse

[blueparrot1966]

As a builder who abhors early game warfare, I usually think of Larry, Curly, and Moe as a hedge against my more warlike neighbors- and the barbarians, of course. But in my current game, I was getting hemmed in by both bad guys (Clan of Embers) and good guys (Kuriotates, that expansionist @#$!).

I figured I'd use the officially "barbarian" big guys to give myself a bit of breathing space, and sent them in to attack the orcs. I'd thought that if I used them carefully, I could do some pillaging, and maybe pick off a couple of new, small settlements.

Using them in shifts, pulling 'em back to the nearest town to heal when they were too hurt, I eventually wiped Clan of Embers OUT, just using the three of 'em, and never actually declaring war! Along the way, 3 Kuriotates settlers and their escorts met with nasty accidents as well, and the areas they were headed to sort of became mine not long afterwards lol.

This was all very enjoyable, of course, and I AM just playing on Prince. But just the same, are these guys a bit overpowered, or am I just very lucky?

 

[wilboman]

But you can't take over towns with HN units, amirite? Or am I, once again, unaware of the finer points of "my own" game?

 

[blueparrot1966]

Not with spiders and other animals, but the Giants'll do it. Another thing is that workers don't respond to HN units properly, i.e., run away. (Run away! Run away!) I scooped up as many workers as I wanted with 'em, no need to build so many of my own- and that was just along the way, I wasn't even making a specific effort to capture them.

I know that's not the only weidness with HN that's been covered, just the biggest one that nags at me. This is a great trait, I've had fun experimenting with it. But I'm sure it's going to be tweaked/nerfed or whatever in future versions.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

I just won religious game as the Khazak. My nearest neighbors, the Doviello were demanding tribute, so I sent these guys to teach them a lesson. The capital had only 3 warriors, and their other city had 2. So, I took both, and eliminated the early rusher by rushing. The giants are very powerful, and they should be moved back a little. The giants are also excellent scouts. They're very strong, and can deflect other's scouts, as well as exploring others borders without open borders.

 

[blueparrot1966]

Yep, hate to say it, but I agree. Being able to create nasty "barbarian attacks" for the competition's settlers and scouts without declaring war is a lot of fun- but it's also an unfair advantage over the AI, I'm afraid.

 

[frenzyslave]

Actually, i disagree. The giants are powerful yes, but a lucky scout can paste them, or a hunter can spell doom to a giant. If you arent protecting the giants by bunching them together, then they get picked off. And warriors in cities can pull off an upset by pounding them with their own beating stick. I like using them to stall a civs growth (I play with 12 civs on standard map), but they do eventually get picked off.

Giants capturing cities only works if you declare war with them now. they can attack, but not capture. HN units can no longer capture cities (with patch L of .2025). Oh and the AI have started to use more HN units. Mercs also come doorknocking.

 

[blueparrot1966]

I must not have patch L, better look at that. That's why I started the thread- I'd just intended to raid and harass, but totally knocking another civ out? Just with them? Sheesh!

I picked my targets carefully, and used them cautiously. It took a long time, because I never had all three of them in play at once. One or two were always back in a city healing. I get your point, and agree that I had a large helping of luck. And as I said at the start, they're a great hedge against conquering rivals for a builder like me. But certainly in the early to mid game, they feel overpowered at times.

 

[frenzyslave]

One or two were always back in a city healing. I get your point, and agree that I had a large helping of luck. And as I said at the start, they're a great hedge against conquering rivals for a builder like me.

If you have open borders, just have them wander around with a disciple, harrassing your neighbour. They heal faster with the disciple in their square.

But certainly in the early to mid game, they feel overpowered at times.

I agree for the early game, but by the time it gets built there are usually hunters about (especially if next to grigori, elves, clowns, and illians). In the mid game, unless using sneaky tactics like above, they get picked off.

 

[Grey Fox]

So Recon units actually get a bonus towards Giants now? Cause last time I played MP, they didn't.

 

[Sarisin]

Rushing to build Pact of Nilhorn was one of my strategies precisely for the reasons you detailed. The Three Stooges were unstoppable as long as you sent all three out. I mentioned in the bug thread that I thought there was something wrong with the healing of HN units though as the Stooges could take a long time to heal no matter what territory they were in. So, it was good to keep one healthy while one or two healed to defend. If all three got damaged, it could be a problem. Barbs are drawn like magnet to them too, don't forget.

However, the fun was muted somewhat with patch 'l.' Now, you can no longer take the cities with them. However, you still can pillage with them and clear out the defenders and wait for the barbs to stop by and take over the city. In fact, the game will not now even let you move one of the Stooges into a city which is not defended.

I like to get them as many promotions as possible so they can go out with my stronger troops later for bombarding and even attacking cities when actual war breaks out.

 

[Grey Fox]

Rushing to build Pact of Nilhorn was one of my strategies precisely for the reasons you detailed. The Three Stooges were unstoppable as long as you sent all three out. I mentioned in the bug thread that I thought there was something wrong with the healing of HN units though as the Stooges could take a long time to heal no matter what territory they were in.

This is actually quite realistic with most units (like Mercenaries) since healing in civ is IMO actually getting reinforcements to replenish casualties. And getting the Supply wagons to your unit so they can rest, get enough food, and repair armor etc. And I would think that bringing a supply train of wagons to a hidden nationality "army" would be a difficult task without revealing the nationality.

 

[Sarisin]

This is actually quite realistic with most units (like Mercenaries) since healing in civ is IMO actually getting reinforcements to replenish casualties. And getting the Supply wagons to your unit so they can rest, get enough food, and repair armor etc. And I would think that bringing a supply train of wagons to a hidden nationality "army" would be a difficult task without revealing the nationality.

I see your point, but here's where it doesn't quite hold water.

I usually will attack my closest neighbors with my Stooges to give myself some room to spread out. When Curley is injured, his 7.0 strength is reduced to 5.7. It takes 11 turns for him to heal to full strength. My civ is only a few tiles away. He is not waiting for supply trains from Uranus!

Of course, your idea makes more sense if my HN guys were up to their tricks far, far away from my civ.

Actually, the way to solve this is to send along a HN unit with the Medic promotion and they heal much faster. Of course, that means building the Council of Esus which generally comes later in the game when the Stooges are no longer that powerful. Also, the Medic might be easily picked off by Assassins with Marksman.

By the way, how would those supply wagons enter the borders of the civ the HN units are in without war being declared?

 

[Grey Fox]

By the way, how would those supply wagons enter the borders of the civ the HN units are in without war being declared?

Thats what I'm talking about, they can't so therefor the slow healrate.

The question is if this is intentional or a bug. It sounds like a bug, but it could be intentional.

 

[Grillick]

I'm pretty sure the Hidden Nationality promotion gives a negative regen bonus in all territories. The way to fix this problem is to give Larry, Moe, and Curly March.

 

[GoodGame]

I concur, even as your best friend, the AI will use Council of Esus to test your guard some.

Giants capturing cities only works if you declare war with them now. they can attack, but not capture. HN units can no longer capture cities (with patch L of .2025). Oh and the AI have started to use more HN units. Mercs also come doorknocking.

 

[Hawe Hawe]

I also do love the Stooges, but they have some backdraws. The tech (cartography?) is a dead end tech without any other purposes, or is anyone interested in a map exchange? Techs in the beginnig are so costly, i usually don't go for cartography anymore.
The wonder is extremly costly too. Is it worth to have your capital, which is probably your only good production site in the early stages, occupied with wonder building for 50 turns?
Maybe if i have Hippus, Khazad, Balseraph or Malakim as neighbours next door. they are usually much more difficult to take out later.

 

[Sarisin]

I also do love the Stooges, but they have some backdraws. The tech (cartography?) is a dead end tech without any other purposes, or is anyone interested in a map exchange? Techs in the beginnig are so costly, i usually don't go for cartography anymore.
The wonder is extremly costly too. Is it worth to have your capital, which is probably your only good production site in the early stages, occupied with wonder building for 50 turns?
Maybe if i have Hippus, Khazad, Balseraph or Malakim as neighbours next door. they are usually much more difficult to take out later.

I agree with what you are saying and usually put Cartography down in my queue of techs. Getting it from a goodie hut helps. I find that even in a game with many AI civs, that the Pact of Nilhorn is a low priority for the other civs and I can get it much later. Of course, you always risk getting beaten to it by a few turns by someone.

If I am playing as the elves all bets are off and I rush to the Pact of Nilhorn to get the Stooges for their bombardment skill.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

How about making Cartography a prerequisite for Trade or Astronomy?

 

[Switchblock]

No, that WOULD make the thre stooges too powerful. The reason that they're not overpowering is because you take so much time to get to it without other benefits, the time lost evens everything out.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I had my Great Prophet killed by my dear friend Cardith's Larry the other night. It was interesting because otherwise I hadn't seen him move them out of his borders.