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The Unique Improvement situation

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Jul 21, 2016.

  1. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Bias means they are more likely to spawn within range of the mentioned tile. Afaik they already have a jungle bias and just like Brazil's jungle-bias it's not really helpful.
     
  2. Horvath Broncos

    Horvath Broncos Warlord

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    I think kuna is good as it is. It has the same problem that many other civs have with their UA, UU or UI that it is a bit situational. But there is usually enough forests in all normal maps nearby that you can benefit from Kuna more than enough. And if you nerf it to be better spawning in the middle of jungle means you win the game. I have had two such starts on immortal and I knew I would win rather easily and I did. The amount of faith and science you can get from say 4 kunas in your capital very early on makes the game almost too easy. And combined that with one of the best UA in a game can be very powerful.
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    The thing is that it isn't even very situational, finding a forest or two near every city isn't by any means hard. Compare that for example with the Terrace farm, that's fairly useless without proper mountains in proper places, or the Brazilwood camp that needs a ton of jungle everywhere.
    The problem here is that the yields provided by the Kuna just aren't interesting. They are all global yields, making the tiles boring to work, and on top of that the yields are just pathetic.

    Compare the Kuna and the Brazilwood camp, for example, in the renaissance era, the Kuna provides you with 3science and 2 faith while the Brazilwood camp provides you with 5 culture and 2 gold, which one of those feel more interesting to work?
    This also completely ignores the fact that Brazilwood camps can be build adjacent to each other.
     
  4. Horvath Broncos

    Horvath Broncos Warlord

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    I don't know about boring. The early tech lead which you will get with kunas opens up so many possibilities and if and when you have other ways to get culture and money (religion. which you are going to get among first thanks to kunas) you can keep your tech lead and crap those wonders you need etc.

    I have not yet played with Brazil but so far I would say Kuna is the best UI.
     
  5. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    I agree Kuna is awesome and definitely doesn't need a buff.

    It almost ensures you get a religion while also supporting your Science (which you need to rush Maths). What's not to like?

    It's not the best one though, but that's a good thing considering how great the rest of the civ is.
     
  6. NarrativeKnight

    NarrativeKnight Chieftain

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    I must have missed part of the conversation long before this thread started. Why aren't tipis a regular improvement now that they are not a special one? They are an alternative to villages and a reasonable one. I ask because Whoward made a unique tipi improvement that only goes on a couple of resources and that just seems useless unless you have super abundant resources set on your map.

    Yep. I just saw in the first post that Encampments are the replacement for tipis. I have to say that going back to calling them tipis is better. You cannot get more generic than Encampments and it is supposed to be a unique improvement. Disregard my question of course. If it is actually used as a unique improvement I will just have to live with that. Still it would be nice to have something to place in between your villages. I would suggest something called Playing Fields. Every culture has sports of some kind or another and that should be represented in the game. They could start out providing faith, add culture, and then finally add tourism. Bonuses applied for output would come with building arenas. Who wouldn't want that?
     
  7. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    This is really damn true on Communitas. Other scripts like to generate blankets of terrain on occasion, which I suppose is a bit more balanced.

    I'll confess that France has no appeal to me, so I have no opinion.

    The Eki's "overrides features" bit confuses me, and I'm reluctant to commit to a game as the Huns because I'm worried that putting Eki down will destroy resources I'd find later. But is a resource a feature? I don't know and I've never seen it spelled out. The yields also don't seem particularly exploitable, so I've not given the Huns more than a cursory play -- long enough to realize, disappointedly, that their UA doesn't stack with the territory-gaining pantheon or the territory-gaining Authority civic. I'm off topic. The point is, I guess, that the Huns don't strike me as being in a good place overall.


    I didn't realize the name had changed. I like encampments. The Shoshone are interesting.

    Agree on all counts. If the Feitoria could come a BIT earlier, that would be lovely, but overall it's in a fantastic place, and I am extremely prejudiced against UA's that come later in the game.

    I am extremely prejudiced against UA's that come later in the game.

    I think the Maya are a bit like the Japanese in that they are looking for specific, sorta-rare terrains. And given that jungle tiles get buffed by the workshop, university, and herbalist, I think Kuna are ok. I wouldn't say boring, but definitely just OK. The Maya are stupidly powerful, though, so I'm drawing a blank of meaningful changes.

    Polynesia isn't exactly OP. I'm perfectly fine with the Moai being able to improve resources.

    Echo.

    PLEASE LET TERRACE FARMS IMPROVE, IGNORE OR DELETE SHEEP. TARNATION.

    Also, can they get a point of culture or something per 2 / 3 mountains? Food is not the Uber-Resource it was in BNW.
     
  8. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    Eki:
    If I'm understanding how these work correctly, "remove features" means that they simply remove the effects of bonus or other resources from the tile and not the base yields of the tile itself. So on a flat plains tile, one gives you 2f 2p 1c, with 3p if you make a triangle of Ekis. The description isn't clear as to whether or not you can gain more production by placing it next to 4 or 6 other Eki, though I assume so. In that case they seem pretty decent but not amazing, 2f 2p 1c is good in Ancient and Classic era for sure, then they get +1 food in Medieval to keep them relevant, then +1 gold from Economics and +1 food from Fertilizer. It initially has almost the same yields as the Encampment, except instead of not being able to build them adjacent you have to build them adjacent.

    It seems like one of the weaker UIs but still relatively good, I'd have to play with it to get a better idea. Maybe it getting a passive Food bonus if it's next to 2 Farms would help? Especially with how you can't build them on Fresh Water.

    Kuna:
    I'd definitely like to see these moved to an Ancient-era technology, mainly because I've had Pacal as an AI in several of my recent games and the fact that AI on higher difficulties starts with Workers means he's able to start pumping these out right from the start and always ends up pretty much unstoppable when it comes to Religion, and it's not something a human player can really do equally.

    Otherwise I think they're good, they're definitely strongest in the early game but that's fine. Maybe a little Culture at some point to keep them interesting after the early game.
     
  9. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    The Kuna is much stronger than you give credit for.
    For once, it is the earliest faith source. Maya always found, period. That alone would justify it.

    And the science from it is real. Why would you not want to work a science tile? It's the best thing. It's like a scientist that feeds himself and doesn't provide extra unhappiness.

    Encampments on the other hand I don't like at all. They may have decent yields all right, but they mess up farm clusters horribly.
     
  10. Greggy08

    Greggy08 Warlord

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    I think that Now, with the buff, if you get nice terrain Moais are the strongest UI. Like if you are simply on coast it's +3p/+3c in every coastal tile, then it becomes 5c by Renaissance, then if you get nice landscape you can get +6/7 culture and prod per tile. That's just amazing. Imho encampments are the worst one, they don't give big yields, and they break farm adjacency. Also Ekis don't feel appealing, but I haven't tried them
     
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I'm playing right now with shoshone, while I may agree that encampment yields are bad and that I have to forget about farm adjacency, they can be built almost everywhere (flat without features or resources). And its core use is for warfare. Shoshone are good at defending, the encampment just makes it better. So I am trying to go to war often and fight in my territory.
     
  12. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I think a problem here is that the Kuna, as mentioned earlier, is A LOT stronger for the AI than it is for a player, as a player you're not going to go for a turn 1 worker and even if you do that's 15 turns to get the worker done and another 10(?) to get the first Kuna done, and at that point you've crippled your early culture and missed out on your choice of pantheon.

    I'm not going to say that the Maya doesn't usually found a religion either way, but plenty of other civs have no problems founding a religion either.

    Maybe the science does matter, in my opinion it's easier to just fall behind and then catch up with trade-routes to your friendly neighborhood sciencegeek, but that's kinda besides the point.
    Maybe the yields on the improvement is fine, but I really just find them dreadfully boring. Anyways this is clearly not about my opinion alone, so if the rest of you find it fine then by all means keep it the way it is.
     
  13. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    i agree with that point all bonus yields coming in latest eras are, well, kind of unimportant.
     
  14. Der_Zorn_gottes

    Der_Zorn_gottes King

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    I think that the problem of the Kuna is not the Kuna itself, it is really fine as it is.
    But it gets instinctively compared to the Brazilwood camp, which is, I'll give you that, a stronger improvement. Even too strong in my eyes. It only takes three jungled cities (and Brazil gets those all the time in my games, might be related to huge map setting) and they become the runaway.
     
  15. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Actually think the problem with both of them could be the forest/jungle tile they are built on. Forest/jungle tiles are pretty darn powerful after all the midgame buffs they have gained and that doesn't really leave much room to work with when it comes to an improvement on top of it. The problem here comes from the fact that the forest/jungle and assorted bonuses are available to everyone leaving the comparison between the kuna and the lumbermill, a comparison that I don't really favor the Kuna in especially considering how easy it is to pick up the lumbermill buff in industry(industry being something of a standard pickup for traditioncivs).

    Yeah I know that I usually just ignore lumbermills and build farming adjacencies, but that same logic is also applied to Kuna, they are blocking the farms just as much as lumbermills/tradingposts/encampment, and I just don't think the yields hold up for that.
     
  16. matlajs

    matlajs King

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    i rly feel Ekki needs something more than just +1P for adjacency. Also i think would be nice terrace famr conecting sheeps aswell, bcoz they are everywhere on hills and i dont remember one game, where i prioritized sheep pasture before anything gives me more food or flat production from mines(even without resource) sheep pasture is worst resource to work.
     

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