The UNREAL Walkthrough

[InFlux5]

At one point I decided to see what really problematic barbarians will do on marathon. I XML upped their spawning rate by about ten-twenty times and made the Great Wall cost 5000 hammers.

Result (Look who just discovered Liberalism.. )

(The conquest victory with still living AI civs is due to the fact that the Monarch level AIs all got slaughtered by barbarians, so I had to worldbuilder them back with about twenty longbows for support Yes, it was a silly game)

frob I'm LMAO for real

 

[aelf]

I surmised that it was Pyramids that gave him the biggest advantage (of course, coupled with specialists, mainly priests and great priests). It was not possible to tell from his games if it would've worked without, since he built it in both. Good to know that it does work, though I suspect it would need to be a tighter game. And there's no harm expanding or going for early conquests, is there? And having cottages would only help.

I think a better approach would have been to show how a good game with priests and settled prophets can be played, instead of trying to prove that lightbulbing or cottages are not necessary, per se. In that case, it would be understandable that lightbulbing wouldn't be done because the prophets are meant to be settled. Meanwhile, cottages would allow the game to reach its full potential.

It is amazing that some people accused him of micromanagement when they can never have even opened any of his many savegames

He did say in the OP that to use this strategy without cottaging and lightbulbing (the strat and these variants are really separate issues) you must know how to optimise your cities and specialists well. I'm sure 'optimise' includes micromanagement.

 

[Roxlimn]

From what I can tell, obsolete has a very good reason for eschewing cottages. In the early running, when his strat is most different, cottaging tiles that could be farmed would seriously cut into his food supply, food which he needs to run specialists.

Having downloaded and examined his saved games, I can only surmise that it might not have been bad to cottage some of his Capital tiles for commerce after Biology kicks in, but he instead opts to use the food to leverage even more production, which isn't necessarily a bad choice for when you're running Representation.

Could have been cottages, though, but only after Emancipation, since at that late a stage, you really have to accelerate growth into Towns to make the time investment worthwhile. In contrast, Waterwheels, Workshops, Mines, and Specialists give you their output straight up.

I've no doubt that his games could have been improved in some ways by lightbulbing on particular turns, so as to jump the gun on the AI, but obsolete makes up for not lightbulbing through something that I suspect isn't immediately apparent - his attention to AI behavior and manipulation of AI relationships.

While we all tend to pay attention to how the AIs behave and manipulate them to some degree or other, obsolete takes this to a whole 'nother level by knowing, for instance, that Cyrus wouldn't be likely to attack him, given so and so a circumstance, allowing him his brazen one Warrior defense.

To be sure, in the Monarch game, his captured cities with built up Towns were major contributors to his economy.

 

[madscientist]

I surmised that it was Pyramids that gave him the biggest advantage (of course, coupled with specialists, mainly priests and great priests). It was not possible to tell from his games if it would've worked without, since he built it in both. Good to know that it does work, though I suspect it would need to be a tighter game. And there's no harm expanding or going for early conquests, is there? And having cottages would only help.

I think a better approach would have been to show how a good game with priests and settled prophets can be played, instead of trying to prove that lightbulbing or cottages are not necessary, per se. In that case, it would be understandable that lightbulbing wouldn't be done because the prophets are meant to be settled. Meanwhile, cottages would allow the game to reach its full potential.



He did say in the OP that to use this strategy without cottaging and lightbulbing (the strat and these variants are really separate issues) you must know how to optimise your cities and specialists well. I'm sure 'optimise' includes micromanagement.

OK, one point OBSOLETE did satate when he started the first game that noone really talks about is that he does not build cottage often (he does in certain cases) because he focuses on food (farm grasslands) and production (mines). I think he said early it's all about food and production. There is more to his strategy than just settling GPs.

 

[frob2900]

It is amazing that some people accused him of micromanagement when they can never have even opened any of his many savegames

Like I've said before; by this you're implying that a wonder spam/specialist settling strategy is a winner on emperor without micromanagement (i.e. properly paying attention to your cities). Well it isn't, as you can easily convince yourself by trying the strategy without running the game properly.

 

[aelf]

From what I can tell, obsolete has a very good reason for eschewing cottages. In the early running, when his strat is most different, cottaging tiles that could be farmed would seriously cut into his food supply, food which he needs to run specialists.

Having downloaded and examined his saved games, I can only surmise that it might not have been bad to cottage some of his Capital tiles for commerce after Biology kicks in, but he instead opts to use the food to leverage even more production, which isn't necessarily a bad choice for when you're running Representation.

Could have been cottages, though, but only after Emancipation, since at that late a stage, you really have to accelerate growth into Towns to make the time investment worthwhile. In contrast, Waterwheels, Workshops, Mines, and Specialists give you their output straight up.

He also mentioned city specialisation, which is why some cities should have cottages while others focus on specialists and production. That can be done from the early game, in which case the cottages would have matured into towns by mid-game, allowing you to out-tech the AIs even more.

OK, one point OBSOLETE did satate when he started the first game that noone really talks about is that he does not build cottage often (he does in certain cases) because he focuses on food (farm grasslands) and production (mines). I think he said early it's all about food and production. There is more to his strategy than just settling GPs.

Food and production alone aren't as good as food, production and commerce. Of course, there's more to it than just settling GPs. There are the Pyramids and a host of other wonders, as well as a cavalry rush. But these things are just extensions or variations, while the basic element of the game, which makes it different from other games, is still the (exclusive) usage of priest specialists. Anyone can have some highly productive cities, whether you play with this strat or cottage spam.

 

[Roxlimn]

I suspect that more of obsolete's "micromanagement" has to do with prioritizing technologies so that they come online just as he's got a use for them. Ramses, in particular, runs into problems on coasts for an obscure reason - he doesn't start with Fishing, so if you have to leverage a Clam Resource, you'll have to spend an extra 7 turns researching it as the start, delaying Mining, Masonry, and Bronzeworking; all of which are key early production techs.

I noticed in his games that a lot of stuff is like this. He'll time his Bronzeworking early if he needs to make Axemen, just so he has the time to make them, and THEN he plans on having the chopping and Bronze because he's had to research it early. He's got his tech rate down pat so he can sort of estimate just when his capital is ready for another wonder, and then schedules the tech to be available at an opportune time.

 

[madscientist]

Food and production alone aren't as good as food, production and commerce. Of course, there's more to it than just settling GPs. There are the Pyramids and a host of other wonders, as well as a cavalry rush. But these things are just extensions or variations, while the basic element of the game, which makes it different from other games, is still the (exclusive) usage of priest specialists. Anyone can have some highly productive cities, whether you play with this strat or cottage spam.

I agree with you. However, the point made by OBSOLETE is that food and production are bascially diluted by added commerce (cottages) into the equation. I really do not agree with this but I believe that is the point he was making, it is all about food and production. The wonders are adding to generating GPs and the settled GP are adding to production, gold, and science while representation and trade routes are adding to science. All usable tiles are needed for food to run even more specialist.

 

[Roxlimn]

aelf:

I'll confess that to some degree, I share obsolete's aversion to cottages. While they're maturing, cottage tiles are rather unspectacular in terms of what they can do. In the meantime, the city itself is something of a drain.

I prefer to mature a city to about size 4 before I set it to work any cottage tiles, and in the absence of such, I use specialists.

The tiles I prefer to cottage are excess floodplains tiles and grassland tiles that don't have access to fresh water.

I've heard that some people like to make secondary city sites that function primarily for the purpose of maturing cottage tiles for primary cities. I don't know whether this is cost-effective.

I can see where cottages can be useful for the odd tile, but I'm not so sure that it's useful to be spamming cottages early game at the cost of growth and infrastructure. I'm sure you don't mean that.

 

[frob2900]

aelf:I can see where cottages can be useful for the odd tile, but I'm not so sure that it's useful to be spamming cottages early game at the cost of growth and infrastructure. I'm sure you don't mean that.

Serious cottage spam should begin after the first completed axerush conquest (or maybe the second, if you can pull it off). This is by far early enough to have a good number of towns by the time Free Speech hits.

Still, some super early cottages can be good if you have floodplains or, if you are financial, a number of river tiles.

 

[madscientist]

aelf:

I'll confess that to some degree, I share obsolete's aversion to cottages. While they're maturing, cottage tiles are rather unspectacular in terms of what they can do. In the meantime, the city itself is something of a drain.

I prefer to mature a city to about size 4 before I set it to work any cottage tiles, and in the absence of such, I use specialists.

The tiles I prefer to cottage are excess floodplains tiles and grassland tiles that don't have access to fresh water.

I've heard that some people like to make secondary city sites that function primarily for the purpose of maturing cottage tiles for primary cities. I don't know whether this is cost-effective.

I can see where cottages can be useful for the odd tile, but I'm not so sure that it's useful to be spamming cottages early game at the cost of growth and infrastructure. I'm sure you don't mean that.

I think cottages are useful early, granted they are not like an early gold mine but an extra commerce on a river tile early speeds things up considering the simple techs beaing researched. The mature as the techs they help reseach mature, especially financial civs where a 1 commerce grassland on the river turns instantly into 3. It's line an ocean tile that continually increases.

Say three river grasslands are cottaged (2 commerce each), commerce versus two farmed (1 commerce each) and a science specialist (3 beakers); same food output. Assuming you are not running representation early and 100% science slider you have 6 beakers from cottages versus 5 from 2 farms and a scientist. The science specialist/farm will never improve until Biology, the cottages will be fully mature by then. Two benefits for the science farm is the increased beakers from representation (if you run it or have it) and the contribution towards GP points which is not trivial. One may be better than another given the circumstances, but from the gate the three cottaged tiles out perform the farm/scientist I think.

 

[lilnev]

My feeling was that the capital should not have any cottages. You need to be working mines and specialists, so you need all the food you can get. Second city, if it's going to build Parthenon (and I think it should), needs some production early, either mines or ample forests. Don't try to get another settler out until after the Parthenon. But then, it seemed reasonable to grow into a few more cities, especially if you're getting Great Prophets to cover maintenance costs. I was running 100% research essentially the whole game, though sometimes building Wealth to support it. At least one of cities 2-4 should probably be production-oriented to give you a natural spot for the HE. But the others I think could be commerce cities. If you get the Pyramids, your happy-cap will be at least 6, likely higher. If not, you'll want to be in Hereditary Rule, and your happy-cap becomes arbitrary. Letting a city grow onto 6 or 8 riverside cottages could make a substantial contribution to research, especially as the techs start to get more expensive. I think it would beat running scientists in your secondary cities, because the gpps will never add up to enough to outpace your capital.

peace,
lilnev

 

[futurehermit]

I find early cottages hurts my expansion efforts. That is what is most problematic for me about early cottages. Cottaging up after a first assault makes sense to me. Or cottaging up after you are able to peacefully build 8 cities if no close neighbour also makes sense to me (of course you need currency + col so as not to go broke in this case, and also helps the first case although you have pillaging money to help sustain your econ).

 

[DrewBledsoe]

The way Obsolete did this worked fine. But as Aelf pointed out, Cottages in some cities, would have made this even better. I have to agree. I tried it a few times (and may do so again, for my last ever Warlords game), but didn't have The Pyramids, wasn't an Ind leader and didn't rely on rushing an ai.

What the capital is actually doing, is taking the place of probably a dozen or more cities, without having to pay any maintenance, plus all the settled specialists have a greater effect than their sum parts (where've I heard that before), in that they soon make building the next wonder a formality.Of course, all that science / commerce / production works better when accumulated in one place too, rather than split up into several cities. I too was for a long time running 100% science with a surplus gold profit, which is quite incredible at this lvl. Most cities I built as I would normally. i.e. some producution, most cottaged. I believe the wonder spamming capital and settled specialists are the key.

 

[aelf]

I agree with you. However, the point made by OBSOLETE is that food and production are bascially diluted by added commerce (cottages) into the equation. I really do not agree with this but I believe that is the point he was making, it is all about food and production. The wonders are adding to generating GPs and the settled GP are adding to production, gold, and science while representation and trade routes are adding to science. All usable tiles are needed for food to run even more specialist.

This problem is solved by city specialisation. No real dilution is actually going on, since the production cities will still be very productive. In fact, I find it damaging if you just decide to have every city be a production city or a commerce city. It's just not going to be optimal because the terrain isn't going to heed your plan.

I'll confess that to some degree, I share obsolete's aversion to cottages. While they're maturing, cottage tiles are rather unspectacular in terms of what they can do. In the meantime, the city itself is something of a drain.

I prefer to mature a city to about size 4 before I set it to work any cottage tiles, and in the absence of such, I use specialists.

The tiles I prefer to cottage are excess floodplains tiles and grassland tiles that don't have access to fresh water.

I don't usually cottage right away myself. Usually, I will rely more on specialists and resources for my research in the early game. I will start to cottage once hammers for early units (if rushing), or early wonders or settlers and workers aren't that important anymore. That's probably about the Classical Era.

Cottages do suck when you first build them. But that's the deal. Suffer now, enjoy a great deal later.

 

[manu-fan]

Well, having read through all this, with all the arguements about great starting position or whatever, I can say one thing.

This has just shown me the value of early Wonders and settling Specialists and how that compounds over time and provides a huge benefit. I always used to Lightbulb with my Specialists but now consider settling them early on.

Thanks.

Cheers.

 

[frob2900]

This has just shown me the value of early Wonders and settling Specialists and how that compounds over time and provides a huge benefit. I always used to Lightbulb with my Specialists but now consider settling them early on.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record: All it has shown you is that a skilled player can leverage almost any strategy into being workable if they know when and how to use it. Wonder spamming and avoiding lightbulbs is still often a way to get yourself into serious trouble if you're not careful.

 

[aelf]

Maybe I should play a game on Monarch or something where I don't build improvements. Bah! Who needs improvements? Skilled players can win without improvements! If I win, people will see the value of not having to waste hammers on workers.

 

[frob2900]

Maybe I should play a game on Monarch or something where I don't build improvements. Bah! Who needs improvements? Skilled players can win without improvements! If I win, people will see the value of not having to waste hammers on workers.

Try a game where you gift your great people to the AI to prove how sweet a strategy it is

When the inevitable "From now on I'm convinced that gifting my Great Generals to Shaka and Great Scientists to Mansa is the way to go" posts appear, you'll be my biggest hero

 

[UncleJJ]

Like I've said before; by this you're implying that a wonder spam/specialist settling strategy is a winner on emperor without micromanagement (i.e. properly paying attention to your cities). Well it isn't, as you can easily convince yourself by trying the strategy without running the game properly.

I am not implying that at all. I am saying that obsolete did not win this game by sheer micromanagment of the cities he had, quite the opposite, take a look at the savegames if you haven't already and you'll see what I mean.

As to what constitutes "micromanagement" I guess different people mean different things. He did manage the city build queue and whipped stuff occasionally and switched specialists around, but I would have done a lot more. Just look at the tile improvements in the 1505 AD savegame and the state of the other cities.