The Vassalage Metastrategy

[Artichoker]

The point is not in speed, but in power. If the combination of the Pacifism bonus, good tech trades, and wise use of bulbing is enough to win Chemistry or Steel from Liberalsim, then Vassalage provides help by giving a bonus to the Catapults and Trebuchets that are upgraded to Cannons.

Also, by the time we're ready to tech Gunpowder (assuming we don't trade for it), we will probably already have switched from Vassalage to Bureaucracy after starting the Golden Age. The last strech of tech research is boosted by switching to Bureaucracy at the beginning of the Golden Age, as well as the raw science that we get from running many Scientist specialists.

Before we begin that sprint, however, we can take the careful steps to research Liberalism to within 1 turn of completion, in case an AI civ is also trying to win the race.

 

[jmas]

The point is not in speed, but in power. If the combination of the Pacifism bonus, good tech trades, and wise use of bulbing is enough to win Chemistry or Steel from Liberalsim, then Vassalage provides help by giving a bonus to the Catapults and Trebuchets that are upgraded to Cannons.

Good thoughts. One potential issue I see is that, with a non-ORG leader, the extra cost of Vassalage (it has High upkeep) exceeds the value of the additional free unit support it provides according to the article "Civic Upkeep Explained." So the +2 XP is the more relevant bonus with Vassalage--therefore if you're not going to war soon, it seems like you would want to be pretty sure that you will get a significant advantage later--such as getting an extra promo for siege that you wouldn't otherwise get (e.g. with one or more GGs). Maybe that's what you meant...

EDIT: Can you also explain why you think Forges are more desirable to build early under this approach? I'm not sure I understand.

 

[Artichoker]

Good thoughts. One potential issue I see is that, with a non-ORG leader, the extra cost of Vassalage (it has High upkeep) exceeds the value of the additional free unit support it provides according to the article "Civic Upkeep Explained." So the +2 XP is the more relevant bonus with Vassalage--therefore if you're not going to war soon, it seems like you would want to be pretty sure that you will get a significant advantage later--such as getting an extra promo for siege that you wouldn't otherwise get (e.g. with one or more GGs). Maybe that's what you meant...

EDIT: Can you also explain why you think Forges are more desirable to build early under this approach? I'm not sure I understand.

In terms of pure hammer output, having a Forge ready before we start making Catapults and Trebuchets will result in more units that can be upgraded to Cannons later on, assuming that the Forge is completed before we make the switch to Vassalage+Pacifism.

Of course, all of these units will require gold to upgrade them to Cannons, but since the plan is to focus on Banks later on, it won't be that much of a burden once we are finally ready to do the unit upgrading.

All of this assumes, of course, that we didn't benefit from an early war that could have won us a GG. Or...we won a GG but decided to use it to attach to a unit.


As for the free unit bonus of Vassalage...yes, it will be insignificant compared to the +2 XP bonus. Because of Pacifism, we should try to keep the total number of military units low. However, non-military units such as Spies and Workers are still covered by the free unit bonus of Vassalage, while not counting toward the upkeep of Pacifism.

 

[Sidney Magal]

Hey Artichoker!

I've used a strategy similar to the one you describe here in MadScientist's open rpc "Warmonger Gandhi" and it works great! I didn't have to worry about the anarchy because of spiritual, but I used vassalage to keep building level 3 units while running pacifism. I don't get why people shun vassalage that much, it's a very good civic.

 

[Artichoker]

One thing that does pop into mind is a super-early Astro bulb beeline though, because those need to avoid Civil Service so Paper doesn't screw the bulb preferences, which takes Bureu out of the picture. I'm not sure if the detour into Feudalism makes it worthwhile, however. "Super"-early level 3 Mace/Xbow/Galleon warfare - maybe from isolation? Can run pacifism while building up some experienced troops and not go insta-broke, while the early Astro (= internationalcontinental trade routes) fixes up the lack of real economy. Could be fun, if not the most powerful tactic.

I didn't say much about this last time because I didn't have much time to think about it.

But after further thought, I discovered that there will be many cases where winning the Liberalism race is out of the question, even if you are using Bureaucracy. In these special cases, going for the Guilds line can be more economical because of the combined effect of Grocers and Banks. It's the flat 50% bonus of the Bank that is really attractive, even without Wall Street.

This is one kind of "limited war" that I described in one of my posts. Because medieval-age naval warfare will tend to be with smaller armies than land-based, you can probably get away with a smaller army, even with the extra naval units, and still win battles.

Hey Artichoker!

I've used a strategy similar to the one you describe here in MadScientist's open rpc "Warmonger Gandhi" and it works great! I didn't have to worry about the anarchy because of spiritual, but I used vassalage to keep building level 3 units while running pacifism. I don't get why people shun vassalage that much, it's a very good civic.

Glad to hear you used the combo to good effect!

It's a tricky combo to use, because of the variable upkeep of Pacifism...however, when you fine-tune it correctly, the results can be great. Gandhi is Philosophical, just like Suleiman (the leader in Leveraging Vassalage VII). This trait, combined with Pacifism, encourages using more GP farms to generate great people.

 

[Artichoker]

In terms of pure hammer output, having a Forge ready before we start making Catapults and Trebuchets will result in more units that can be upgraded to Cannons later on, assuming that the Forge is completed before we make the switch to Vassalage+Pacifism.

Of course, all of these units will require gold to upgrade them to Cannons, but since the plan is to focus on Banks later on, it won't be that much of a burden once we are finally ready to do the unit upgrading.

All of this assumes, of course, that we didn't benefit from an early war that could have won us a GG. Or...we won a GG but decided to use it to attach to a unit.


As for the free unit bonus of Vassalage...yes, it will be insignificant compared to the +2 XP bonus. Because of Pacifism, we should try to keep the total number of military units low. However, non-military units such as Spies and Workers are still covered by the free unit bonus of Vassalage, while not counting toward the upkeep of Pacifism.

On higher difficulties (especially Deity), one occasionally faces the situation where winning the Liberalism race is not a realistic goal. In many more cases, winning Liberalism is realistic but the returns are marginal, since there will be times when AIs already have all possible techs you can gain from Liberalism.

In these cases, I recommend considering going for the direct Chemistry bulb through Guilds. It becomes possible because Chemistry takes priority over Paper on the GS bulb preferences list. If you plan your research properly, you might even be able to use Guilds or Gunpowder as trade fodder. The most favorable situation is to bulb Philosophy and use it to trade for both Feudalism and Machinery. Guilds can be researched next, to set up Gunpowder.

An alternative to researching Guilds is to take the Music path and go for the Music race. Assuming you win the race, you should be able to use Music in combination with Philosophy to trade for Guilds.

 

[Artichoker]

On higher difficulties (especially Deity), one occasionally faces the situation where winning the Liberalism race is not a realistic goal. In many more cases, winning Liberalism is realistic but the returns are marginal, since there will be times when AIs already have all possible techs you can gain from Liberalism.

In these cases, I recommend considering going for the direct Chemistry bulb through Guilds. It becomes possible because Chemistry takes priority over Paper on the GS bulb preferences list. If you plan your research properly, you might even be able to use Guilds or Gunpowder as trade fodder. The most favorable situation is to bulb Philosophy and use it to trade for both Feudalism and Machinery. Guilds can be researched next, to set up Gunpowder.

An alternative to researching Guilds is to take the Music path and go for the Music race. Assuming you win the race, you should be able to use Music in combination with Philosophy to trade for Guilds.

A bonus feature of taking this research path is being able to bulb Optics while you're teching toward Gunpowder. Optics has higher priority than Paper, but lower priority than Chemistry. So you will always have this option, as long as you also have Compass, but you can also bypass Optics if you feel it is not necessary.

 

[Udey1]

Got to weigh in with my opinion. I always value buro above all others, many times keeping it the whole game. I play deity level and churchill. Space or domination. (domination obviously gives way to nationalism) I guess my leader choice comes with alot of free promos and faster ones out the gate so vassalage doesn't net me nearly as much.

The argument of not having a good buro capital is usually a bad one. Someone stated this before me last page. One of your cities will pretty much always have good production or great commerce. If it is a hammer capital you will want to make arrangements to running a more hammer based economy. Sometimes moving your capitol is necessary. Not having a city with either by the time CS rolls around is bad.

 

[Artichoker]

Got to weigh in with my opinion. I always value buro above all others, many times keeping it the whole game. I play deity level and churchill. Space or domination. (domination obviously gives way to nationalism) I guess my leader choice comes with alot of free promos and faster ones out the gate so vassalage doesn't net me nearly as much.

The argument of not having a good buro capital is usually a bad one. Someone stated this before me last page. One of your cities will pretty much always have good production or great commerce. If it is a hammer capital you will want to make arrangements to running a more hammer based economy. Sometimes moving your capitol is necessary. Not having a city with either by the time CS rolls around is bad.

First of all, I'd like to mention that I appreciate your opinion, even though you might disagree on the potential of Vassalage.


Some counterarguments:

1) While it's true that good city selection and planning can often ensure a good outlook for using Bureaucracy, it doesn't mean that what you gain from Bureaucracy is more than with Vassalage.

2) In cases where it's necessary to move your capital in order to achieve satisfactory gain from Bureaucracy, the economy must overcome the overhead cost in building the Palace. That cost hurts the most the earlier you build the Palace. If you're not in a hurry to move the Palace, on the other hand, you have the opportunity to wait until that overhead cost hurts less.

3) Although Bureaucracy and Nationhood are both good civics in their own right, using Vassalage doesn't prevent a good player from utilizing the other two civics as well. Take Nationhood, for example. The number of soldiers you can draft is limited by the population of your cities. Most of the time, a sufficient quantity of forces can be gained during the length of one Golden Age--and certainly not more than two.

4) Vassalage can also profit greatly from a strong production capital. In fact, there are 2 situations where Vassalage becomes very strong: 1) when you have the Heroic Epic in a high-production city, and 2) when you build Medieval age units and upgrade them to their Renaissance counterparts. Both these situations make Vassalage strong because they both result in more units that gain the +2 XP bonus.

 

[Artichoker]

One thing that does pop into mind is a super-early Astro bulb beeline though, because those need to avoid Civil Service so Paper doesn't screw the bulb preferences, which takes Bureu out of the picture. I'm not sure if the detour into Feudalism makes it worthwhile, however. "Super"-early level 3 Mace/Xbow/Galleon warfare - maybe from isolation? Can run pacifism while building up some experienced troops and not go insta-broke, while the early Astro (= internationalcontinental trade routes) fixes up the lack of real economy. Could be fun, if not the most powerful tactic.

It's not so much the detour into Feudalism that discourages this strategy (you can very often trade Philosophy for Feudalism), but rather the delaying of Civil Service in order to open up the desired bulb path.

A similar, but more conservative strategy is to delay Paper (not Civil Service) to open up the Chemistry bulb. With this strategy, you exchange 2 Edu bulbs for 2 Chem bulbs. Now because Chemistry prerequisites are a bit harder, early great people may need to be spent on Academies to boost research--that is, after the initial one is spent to bulb Philosophy.

How can this tech path compensate for forfeiting the chance to win the Liberalism race? Well, there are a few ways to do that...1) With this tech path, there is more synergy with a Music race strategy. Drama can be taken as the prerequisite for Philosophy instead of Code of Laws, which can be delayed as a result (otherwise, you might need it for Civil Service). 2) The beakers spent to get Paper and Liberalism, which may not be immediately useful, can be spent directly on technologies that are more practical, such as Guilds and Gunpowder. 3) This approach requires fewer GSs to be spent on bulbs, allowing you to diversify into other types of great people such as GMs. If you happen to pop more GSs, you can still use them for Academies. 4) Going for the Liberalism race doesn't mean that you will win it. With this strategy, the Music race remains open, but the risk is much less since you can bulb it immediately.

With this strategy, it is usually important to gain both Feudalism and Machinery in trade with Philosophy, allowing you to research Guilds immediately. But this might not even be necessary, provided that you were able to bulb Music earlier. In that case, Music can often go a long way in your tech trading efforts, making it more likely you can trade for Guilds.

 

[Berkobob]

Great work Artichoker, your posts are very well thought out. Made this thread really enjoyable to read.

Don't have anything to contribute to the strategy at this stage but might I suggest the latest instalment of the Immortal University (ragnar) as a showcase for a variant of this strategy. I think the conditions of the map are suitable...

 

[Artichoker]

Great work Artichoker, your posts are very well thought out. Made this thread really enjoyable to read.

Thanks for the feedback, Berkobob.

So far there are 2 versions of the strategy:

1) Vassalage + Paganism, for Medieval war

2) Vassalage + Pacifism, for Renaissance war


I may introduce another one to cover Modern war. This will tend to use the Vassalage + Free Religion combo.

Don't have anything to contribute to the strategy at this stage but might I suggest the latest instalment of the Immortal University (ragnar) as a showcase for a variant of this strategy. I think the conditions of the map are suitable...

Are you meaning to say that your own game uses a variant of the strategy, or are you suggesting to me to try it out?

Based on the leader traits, though, I can see Ragnar being a fit for an all-out Medieval war on Immortal level, using Vassalage.

 

[Berkobob]

Sorry this wasnt clear. From your earlier posts I read you were looking for more games to showcase this strategy and thought it would be a good game for you to try out to showcase your strategy. (I dont feel like replaying the map)

In my IU game I fought a series of classical/medieval wars. I believe I started in HR/Bureau/OR and switched to Vassalage/Theocracy for the medieval portion of the war. I feel my game broadly followed your strategy but was not done optimally (eg timing civics changes/choosing techs to suit/specialising cities optimally).

I feel the map is suitable because:

We have an aggressive leader, easier to get lvl 3 melee units, cheap barracks for production;
Many posters (including me) seemed to have trouble peacefully settling enough land, meaning a war prior to liberalism is a good or even the best strategy;
our neighbors (toku, hammi) had higher-than-average quality units (extra promos from agg/pro) meaning we needed highly promoted units to maximise our efficiency.

 

[Artichoker]

Sorry this wasnt clear. From your earlier posts I read you were looking for more games to showcase this strategy and thought it would be a good game for you to try out to showcase your strategy. (I dont feel like replaying the map)

In my IU game I fought a series of classical/medieval wars. I believe I started in HR/Bureau/OR and switched to Vassalage/Theocracy for the medieval portion of the war. I feel my game broadly followed your strategy but was not done optimally (eg timing civics changes/choosing techs to suit/specialising cities optimally).

I trust that your choice of timing and civics combinations was correct for the situation...

Although I usually do not recommend using Vassalage+Theocracy in combination (due to the redundancy of the +2 XP bonus), it can be useful in extreme cases where success in battle takes much greater priority over other considerations, such as research.

I feel the map is suitable because:

We have an aggressive leader, easier to get lvl 3 melee units, cheap barracks for production;
Many posters (including me) seemed to have trouble peacefully settling enough land, meaning a war prior to liberalism is a good or even the best strategy;
our neighbors (toku, hammi) had higher-than-average quality units (extra promos from agg/pro) meaning we needed highly promoted units to maximise our efficiency.

I think you've described it well...in these kinds of games, it is harder to move forward in tech, regardless of which civics you choose. The tech you can gain by defeating your enemies and occupying their land will easily overshadow the small amount of tech you can gain while fighting the war.

 

[Artichoker]

As I was reviewing some of the posts in my other thread (Delayed Caste System), particularly regarding the use of the 1st GS on a Philosophy bulb, I realized that this strategy would have synergy with a Vassalage+Pacifism strategy.

There are 2 main reasons:

1) While in Vassalage, you don't care that much about an Academy until later (approximately at the time you enter the Renaissance).

2) While in Pacifism, the gain from the GPP bonus is greater because you start Pacifism with a GP cost of 200 GPP, instead of 300.


The timing of the civics switches also gains some flexibility. I've been experimenting with Creative leaders like Willem van Orange. Because he's Creative, it becomes a viable strategy to delay Slavery until Pacifism. For example, with a Creative leader you can have the following sequence of civic switches:

1st switch: Slavery + Pacifism
2nd switch: Hereditary Rule + Vassalage

With non-Creative leaders it's harder to do this since you need to get up the Library ASAP. So the regular sequence would be used in the default case:

1st switch: Slavery
2nd switch: Vassalage + Pacifism

But this assumes that you have enough extra happiness to delay Hereditary Rule until the Golden Age--typically made possible when using a Charismatic leader.


In summary, there are 3 main points to be gained from the above:

1) Using the 1st GS for Philosophy has synergy with Vassalage + Pacifism

2) Using a Charismatic leader has synergy with the default sequence of civic switches.

3) Using a Creative leader has synergy with the alternate sequence of civic switches.

 

[obsolete]

The only time I'm willing to use Vassalage (when not in an AW game), is when I have a charasmatic leader, and I'm doing my cav push. This gives me formation cav right out of the gates without any use of wonders or generals.

But even still, sacrificing Bur. is a big bullet to bite.

 

[Artichoker]

The only time I'm willing to use Vassalage (when not in an AW game), is when I have a charasmatic leader, and I'm doing my cav push. This gives me formation cav right out of the gates without any use of wonders or generals.

But even still, sacrificing Bur. is a big bullet to bite.

Every player has a different playing style...so I respect your opinion in this regard.

But it could turn out that other playing styles are more compatible with Vassalage than yours. Although they may not seem to be very effective on the surface, my belief is that the need for proper fine tuning is the only obstacle that keeps Vassalage from being an effective civic. Once this fine tuning is accomplished, Vassalage can then do its job...

 

[Artichoker]

Up to now, the Leveraging Vassalage games have been avoiding the self-research of the Theology tech, mainly because of not using Theocracy. This may change in future games.

When going for the Liberalism race, a choice must be made between Civil Service and Theology as the prerequisite for Paper. There are some advantages to choosing Theology, namely:

1) It costs less than Civil Service

2) It often has better trade value than Civil Service

3) It unlocks the Theocracy civic

Even though Theocracy doesn't always combine well with Vassalage in making units stronger, except in a few special cases, reasons 1) and 2) above will sometimes be able to justify choosing Theology instead of Civil Service, even when 3) is irrelevant.

After moving up to Deity level, the focus of Vassalage has been pre-building units for later use. The reason that Civil Service was the standard choice in earlier games was the need to build Macemen. Chain farming also has great value, but is possible not to rely on it.

Since we now have a way to play without relying on Macemen or Chain farming, we may able to gain some tech savings through 1) and 2) above. But 3) is also valuable in some cases. With Hannibal and the Carthraginian UU, we can pre-build Numidian Cavalry, thus gaining a free Flanking I promotion for our mounted units. In addition, the combination of Stable+Vassalage+Theocracy gives our Numidian Cavalry 9 XP to begin with.

Since we'll be in Theocracy instead of Pacifism, we will normally set our sights on an easier goal for Liberalism, like Nationalism, for example. Eventually we can get Military
Tradition to open up Cuirassiers or Cavalry. The current game in the series is almost done. I will try to find a way to demonstrate this idea.

 

[Artichoker]

For pre-build/upgrade with Vassalage, another unit that has good potential is the Grenadier, for the following reasons:

1) Doesn't require any special resource

2) Upgrade from Maceman to Grenadier costs only 110 , compared to 170 for Catapult to Cannon, or 140 for Maceman to Rifleman. Only Trebuchet to Cannon is cheaper (80 ), but it requires Engineering, which is harder to get than Civil Service + Machinery

3) Military Science tech simultaneously unlocks Military Academies and can be useful trade bait provided that you get it early

4) CR promotions from Macemen combine with +50% anti-Riflemen attack bonus, and getting a head start towards CR3 means the extra +10% anti-Gunpowder bonus is gained sooner

5) Can be used in combination with Riflemen to provide solid attack/defense combo

6) Siege units focus on bombardment, while Grenadiers focus on offense. This streamlining of unit roles allows 5 XP Catapults to remain very cost-effective with the Accuracy promotion. 5 XP Trebuchets can be kept in reserve for future upgrade to Cannons.

 

[budweiser]

It occurs to me that you can run the happy cap up pretty high (up to your helath cap) in your cities under HR + Vassalage withut paying for the units themselves.