The Way We Play Multiplayer

Bringa

King
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Jan 23, 2006
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I really don't know why I'm writing this post except that I really felt like it.

Basically I'm going to describe the way that I play FFH with my good friend Pascal, basically the guy I play practically all multiplayer games with. I'm not saying that this way is better or worse than any other way. I'm just saying this is the way that turned out to be most fun for us. Basically I'd like to invite constructive feedback on what we're doing, and if we can win someone over to the dark side, even better.

We're currently playing FFH 2030h. First of all, I'd like to address the OOS Issues. It's true that the game goes OOS every now and then; this has been true for us for a long time now. Since it doesn't happen more than once an hour and since a quick save/load resolves the issue, we don't mind very much.

The big thing I guess is fair combat, my propagandistic name for what is essentially a change in the way combat works. We make combat much more predictable, tuning down the element of randomness. A 4.0 vs 3.5 combat will always ALMOST result in a win for the 4.0 unit. I've hacked fair combat into 2030h in an ugly way, through xml and python changes. It works, as far as I can tell, but the percentile displays are off (you'll always get 0%), and there's always a chance I forgot some spell hidden deep in the python. But basically this is the core of our changes: we don't play without fair combat anymore. The randomness in a game where power is concentrated in so few units is too frustrating.

Second, we like resource heavy maps. We really do. We also don't like having to use ships to get to your enemy. Hence we are playing with a version of Smart Map which I heavily modified. I used the latest version from the VISA team and started hacking in a whole bunch of changes. Essentially I ripped out everything I didn't need and locked the map script in a mode where it generates something like a lakes map. I've fine-tuned plains vs grass vs desert and forestation, and then I went into CIV4BonusInfo and REALLY changed stuff around. The map format we use is "cylinder", that is y-wrap (you can keep going north or south and return to where you started) with the equator in the horizontal middle (the equator is a vertical line). I've separated bonuses much more than was the case (so if you want all happiness bonuses, you really have to have cities from one of the poles to the equator) and generally rebalanced their densities. I've also REALLY turned up the amount of bonuses generated. Depending on map size and number of players, you can get very resource heavy maps. This is the way we like to play the game.

Finally, I've applied some soft balancing aftertouches. Most importantly, I've heavily nerfed Valin and Rosier. It got to the point where our games were races to one of those heroes and unless the other player got the other hero out in time, it was game over. To some degree this is connected to the fair combat changes: with guaranteed wins the heroes are even more fearsome. The counter to that is to wear the hero down with many units (where many may be 4 or 5). This doesn't work on a 3 movement hero. He sweeps in, kills something, and disappears again. There is nothing you can do against that. The nerf I've applied was to simply change them to movement 1 heroes. It works wonderfully. They're still very powerful, but if you don't bring an army to protect them, you will lose them.

We've also dialed down the effectiveness of the academy as we found that almost all our games became techraces due to the 50% science bonus of an academy that you can get seriously early in FFH. The academy now gives a 10% research bonus; still something useful to get in late game, but no longer the "you MUST use your first GS for this or else you lose" feature it used to be.

In terms of AI adjustments, the only thing I've ported to Shadow so far from Smarter Orcs is the simple block on magic techs. The AI will never research down the magic branch. This in itself is an astonishing boost to the AI's performance.

We tend to play 1v1 on Duel/Small maps or FFA (Free For All) on Standard maps with about 5-6 AI civs.

Other settings we use are: No Barbarians, Quick game speed, non-simultaneous rounds (because they become a hectic click-fest in mp), no AI building reqs (cause the AI is too weak without this setting), Last Days, Living World, All Victories enabled, No Tech Trading, Permanent Alliances.

I wonder if anyone would like to play with us with those settings :)
 
i second that brennan, but can you make a mod or something with all those settings, and everyone must have that mod and no more...
 
To make it very clear that this is not Vanilla FFH, I've called this modmod "Straciatella". Simply unzip the attached zip into your FFH Assets dir. Do make a backup. Very rough list of changes:

* Fair Combat hacked in. Do not trust the percent win chance, trust the absolute numbers! 5.0 vs 3.0 *will* win, no matter what, a thousand out of a thousand times.
* Slightly increased damage healed by heal spell
* I *hope* I found all spells and made them Fair Combat compatible. If there's a spell that does next to no damage, let me know.
* Valin and Rosier have had their horses clamped: both changed to 1 movement.
* Academy gives +10% research. For short-mid term, a super specialist is more effective. Before this change, there was only one obvious choice: build academy.
* Bonuses separated. Deer and Fur now sit in the back of the bus. Lots of changes around bonuses. Lots and lots and lots.
* Mana nodes give some token amount of hammers/commerce so the tile isn't completely wasted
* Diplomacy penalties/bonuses for Good/Neutral/Evil doubled
* Great Person spawnrate increased
* Mana effects increased (usually doubled). Rationale: multiplayer games happen on smaller maps. You won't have more than one or two of any given mana type.
* AI won't research magic techs
* Changed default game options. Review them to make sure you know what's going on. (I think I forgot to set No Barbs to default, but that is really a question of taste. I don't like the micromanagement that barbs mean, some may like the free xp and accept the micromanagement.)

Things that pretty certainly don't work:
* First strikes (will probably make no difference at all)
* Stoneskin (same)

I attached my version of Smartmap separately. Put it into your Program Files/Firaxis/civ4/Public Maps (assuming it's there ;P) directory. Here are the map settings I usually use, with the ones I consider critical for a good game in bold. Actually, any other settings are guaranteed to cause problems ;) Of course you can play Straciatella with any map script, but the CIV4BonusInfos.xml is really made for use with this map.

Standard/Temperate/Low/Ancient/Quick/1 Pangaea/SmartMap No Snow Tundra/normal levels of all/None/use this plz/30%/2%/40% forest, light jungle/many rivers, many lakes/very round no fragments/SmartMap/wrap y

You also need dreiche2's Flavor Map Mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=183924 Put it into PublicMaps. You don't need to do anything else; the relevant function is imported in Smartmap.
 

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Good lord. All I can think is, I can't even begin to imagine how unstoppable Baron Duin Halfmorn must be in this mod... He's already my favorite hero, but he'd be an absolute civ-crusher in this, especially when the werewolves started to pick up speed.

And considering how effectively the elves with a good forest start can rush him... I don't know, have you ever tried it to see what the balance is like? It's a devastating tactic in normal FfH (well, every tactic that involves God King and a pop-30+ capital is devastating, but still), and the one thing that usually stops it is the Baron getting unlucky on a 70% combat chance, at least in my experience.
 
What exactly makes him so strong? Remember that we play without barbs, so in order to create werewolves he has to kill the other civ's units. What's to stop the other civ from simply building 5 or 6 axemen and taking him down? Remember that this change goes both ways: you are guaranteed to win a combat with the stronger unit, but you are also guaranteed to take some damage. That effect is self-amplifying: the stronger unit takes some damage in the first combat, therefore taking more damage in the second combat, and therefore taking even more damage in the third combat etc.
 
Well if he needs to get them first (and that means the player needs to research Horseback riding first, not a trivial investment), that's okay. The problem with Valin and Rosier was that they SPAWNED with 3 movement and had the option to go all the way up to 5.
 
What's wrong with that? They're on horseback, thus they should be faster then foot soldiers. A better way to avoid getting 5 speed would be to stop them from being able to get mobility promotions, although TBH, I see no reason for this at all.
 
You're mixing balance and realism concerns ;) The problem is that they have speed 3 when they spawn. That they can get up to 5 makes it WORSE, but just at speed 3 they're already way too strong.
 
I think that Valin and Rosier are just fine as designed. What makes them unbalanced is the same thing that makes the Hippus rediculous: mounted units that have the Commando promotion! Sure, they don't start with Commando like Tasunke's units do, but as heroes, it is very easy to get the Commando promotion for them. The three movement doesn't give them too much movement, the ability to do hit and run attacks 9 spaces (15 with mobility II) in enemy territory does. If Commando was only availabe to Melee and Recon units, it would really clear up balance issues with these heroes and FfH in general.

That said, Valin and Rosier can still become very powerful units when they get Mobility II and Blitz. Being able to attack a city multiple times in a single turn is a nice benefit. You still have to bring support troops with this tactic, or they will get killed by an enemy counterattack. This is especially true if the enemy can take advantage of extra movement on roads and they cannot. Your fair combat mod sounds like it would nerf the Blitz factor as well.
 
I don't think there is a problem with these untis, but I do think that mobility2 should require the stirrups tech and that you should be able to pillage your own roads to defend against commandos. .
 
Or perhaps forts/castles/citadels force any unit to stop movement around them. A sort of zone of control.
 
Stopping is too much, but I wouldn't mind it costing an extra movement point, and or getting a "first strike" against enemy units. (kinda like Blaze had in his modmod a while back)

I still like the idea of letting forts/castles/citadels extend cultural borders based on the troop present in them too.
 
Stopping is too much, but I wouldn't mind it costing an extra movement point, and or getting a "first strike" against enemy units. (kinda like Blaze had in his modmod a while back)

I still like the idea of letting forts/castles/citadels extend cultural borders based on the troop present in them too.

To make it more simple, if they extended culture it shouldn't be based on units garrisoned, but rather when you build a fort it extends borders by one tile.

Well any sort of bonus or enemy hindrance would be appreciated, but if you think stopping is too much, you should see my friend who wants it returned to civ2 style- there, when you entered Zone of Control you could either move out or attack the fort- there was no bypassing! Although I'd prefer that system to this non existent, it IS too radical.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure (as in I just checked the 'pedia) the Baron starts with 3 speed. Also, the werewolves he summons are speed 2 units that turn into 3 speed units. All of which can get Mobility 2.

He does hit a bit later than Valin, but I imagine he's still capable of some nasty hit-and run.

...Also, about wearing him down, are you aware that the werewolves can move and attack the turn they are summoned? It relies on luck, but...

Anyway, I'll probably give the mod a try, I'm curious to see how the game plays with predictable combat...
 
Great information Bringa. Personally Im glad you took the time to write it. Just as you say the hero nerfing is required if you reduce the randomness (but I like the balcne as is in the main game). I really like your point on the academy though, I always use my first sage for that and that usually indicates that its not a very balanced option.

Im going to think about it, I think 10% may be to little, but 25% may be a good start.

Thanks again for posting, keep it coming. The kind of balance experience you get from playing multiple games at the same version has been hard to get on ffh (because we rev so frequently) so this is great feedback.
 
You are correct, Baron pops out at Move 3, so can become Move 5. And I hadn't thought about it, but he would be near impossible to kill since he has a good shot at creating a Strength 5 defender from each of the minions you toss at him to wear him down. If only he came with the Hero promotion then he would even defend after them when full health :drool:

Ravenous Werewolf is only Strength 5 and Move 1, gaining 3 Strength and 1 move each time it upgrades (8 & 2 as Werewolf, 11 & 3 as Greater). Just need a druid/mage tagging along behind to cast Poisoned Blade for you ;)
 
Oh, wow. Werewolves are valid targets for Poisoned Blade?

I never knew that... Thanks, that just boosted the effectiveness of my FoL strat by a solid 20%... ^_^

Also, why ~doesn't~ the Baron have Hero? He is a Hero unit and all, and he's the only Hero in the game other than Barnaxus to not have it...
 
I don't think werewolves can be given poison blade: it works only on unitcombat_recon, and werewolves are all unitcombat_animal.

That also means that they can be captured pretty easily. (Too easily I think; they should be switched to unitcombat_beast, imho. Edit: I just made it that way in my modmod, since I was thinking about it and didn't want to forget. This also means they will be getting more promotions, and likely be more aggressive. I may make them slower to compensate)
 
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