There is no Question that the A.I. Cheats

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by jkasparian
Ha Ha about the Wonders. Yes you get 4 turns from the Wonder.....they start building it. They have no hero and not a war.

Now you are two away from building it, and all of a sudden the have beat you!

This is at Regent also.

I do not like this kinda of tactic, I know it's part of the game. But figuring out how to cheat, to defeat their cheating gets old.

They switched wonders. Common tactic. Use it myself.

 

[Sullla]

The second post on this thread explains it all. The AI does not cheat with regards to wonders. They commonly build them as a result of "cascading" from one wonder to another. Break the cascade and the human can get every wonder easily on Monarch or below. And Deity is far from impossible: try looking at this month's Game of the Month competition to see how various good players have turned a terrible starting position into a win.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by jkasparian
Ha Ha about the Wonders. Yes you get 4 turns from the Wonder.....they start building it. They have no hero and not a war.

Now you are two away from building it, and all of a sudden the have beat you!

This is at Regent also.

I do not like this kinda of tactic, I know it's part of the game. But figuring out how to cheat, to defeat their cheating gets old.

Exactly correct.

Some AI cheats which include Settler Diarrhea are just intensely annoying and not that effective as those crappy little towns produce very little for the AI and are indefensible in war and often lost to Culture.

I still like ocean-going teleporting galleys as my favorite AI cheat. I am also convinced that when you raze a city, the AI gives itself instant free settlers who immediately descend like a plague on those tiles - but again the AI is STUPID as even if you are at war with that AI civ it still will send in a settler, and it gets wiped out.

 

[jkasparian]

Originally posted by Zachriel


They switched wonders. Common tactic. Use it myself.

Nope, tested it. Right before they started builing MY Wonder, they were building a musketeer.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by jkasparian


Nope, tested it. Right before they started builing MY Wonder, they were building a musketeer.

Post the save game, if you can. I'm sure that many of us would be interested in seeing it.

 

[Kilroy]

Originally posted by Plutarck

For instance, galleys going around in the ocean? If it's version 1.00 and the civilization built the Great Lighthouse, yeah, I believe galleys were incorrectly allowed ocean-faring ability. Fixed in 1.16f.

Ha ha, joke's on you. Once you discover Navigation your galleys and caravels can cross oceans. Great post though, some excellent points and I enjoyed the link.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Ironikinit

AFAIK, the computer has never used a leader to rush a wonder in my games. I don't keep track, tho.

Another common "AI cheats" story is that the AI knows exactly where to attack, even if the city is deep in your territory and the player never ever ever traded maps. I just haven't seen it, and under republic or democracy I sometimes leave cities totally unprotected while I push units toward the front. I can't say for sure, but to me it seems like the AI uses the same fog of war rules that I do.

1) I`ve seen it, the AI picked a war with me for no appaerent reason, attcked a small useless border town, withdrew after 1(!) fight (that happened to give them a leader). Next turn they offered peace. next turn they completed a wonder for which I`d just traded them the tech 1 turn before the war - without em ever seeing a warning before that they`d started a wonder at all. I got the warning (The Egyptians have started Leonardos Workshop), then right away it was finished!

2) Test it this way: get the AI to attack you in force. Now, pull troops out of a big city, while loading many units into other, nearby towns. The undefended city must be close enough so the AI troops can reach in within 8 turns or so, but out of their view.
There mustn`t be a town on the other side of their terriotry or deep inside theirs, these would get priority. Now watch the AI beelind for that town. Then, move a huge garrison into it (without the AI seeing that) and pull troops out of one that`s in another direction - the AI stacks will promptly move towards it.

Best to see with a mod where you disable all fast units - then the AI troops stick together and do not get split because cav takes tours around obstacles like hills...

If I get a nice example of it I`ll post it.

btw: have you ever contained an enemx early on with Scouts???? If you do so, and a barbarian appears in the back of your Scouts (i.e. out of your opponents view) he will try to send troop at the barb he can`t possibly see!!! Pity I got here after I played on, I had that in a game I`m right now playing!

 

[newfangle]

AI trading is a biggie too.

 

[Zouave]

Another AI cheat??

I have investigated many enemy cities in several Modern era game saves.

I never see factories - except sometimes only in their capital city.

So, apparently the AI civs get factory-level production without having to build one in almost all cases, and without the subsequent pollution.

 

[Sullla]

They don't build factories, and they get no shield bonuses to cover that. Period. Why do you think it is so easy to defeat AI civs in the industrial age and afterwards?

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by newfangle
AI trading is a biggie too.

It's annoying but not cheating, at least in 1.21f. The .bic file can be changed in Difficulty Levels to set AI to AI Trade Rate to 100. Lower numbers make the trading more fair. Unfortunately, they made another change in 1.21f so that if you change the .bic file it affects only new games, not games you already started. So you would have to start a new game to do this.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Zouave
Another AI cheat??

I have investigated many enemy cities in several Modern era game saves.

I never see factories - except sometimes only in their capital city.

So, apparently the AI civs get factory-level production without having to build one in almost all cases, and without the subsequent pollution.

Originally posted by Sullla
Another AI cheat??

They don't build factories, and they get no shield bonuses to cover that. Period. Why do you think it is so easy to defeat AI civs in the industrial age and afterwards?

The AI will build factories and other production enhancing improvements. In fact, I posted a saved game to Apolyton that proved that the AI built factories, manufacturing plants and nuclear plants (even with Hoover Dam); Apolyton doesn't currently have the post (post is too old), but, any doubts email notyoueither, Grrr! or other 'poly regulars.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
The .bic file can be changed in Difficulty Levels to set AI to AI Trade Rate to 100. Lower numbers make the trading more fair.

Idiotically, it can`t be set to less than 100% for levels below Regent - so much for easy entry levels for newbies.....

 

[Evincar]

Here's a list of known A.I cheats.

1: The AI galleys NEVER sink in ocean. Not, never. If they had even a 1% chance of sinking, I would have seen one. The AI tends to attack me with galleys in the Industrial Age, crossing half of the world. They only lose galleys to my battleships

2: The AI can see ALL your units, and maybe even your city improvements. (Haven't you wondered why your FP gets nuked?)
The units bits is unquestionable IMHO, since they always attack your less defended city, even if it's out of their LoS.

3: The AI trades a lot among them, but ask you for an arm and a leg for any stupid luxurie. (Oh, Caesar feels insulted since I offer him 3 luxuries plus rubber for his furs )

4: I don't think AI is affected by reputation hits. If they were, everyone would be constantly at war with everyone, and they would offer you better deals.

5: The AI has less corruption, even on Regent. Optimal number of cities is equal in Chieftain, 90% for you in Regent and 70% in Deity.

I can't tell about any other cheats, but there are possibly more than this.

 

[Kilroy]

Originally posted by Evincar
Here's a list of known A.I cheats.

1: The AI galleys NEVER sink in ocean. Not, never. If they had even a 1% chance of sinking, I would have seen one. The AI tends to attack me with galleys in the Industrial Age, crossing half of the world. They only lose galleys to my battleships

In that case, OMG THE HUMAN CHEATS TOO WTH. FOR THE LAST TIME AFTER YOU GET NAVIGATION CARAVELS AND GALLEYS CAN GO IN OCEANS. If you don't believe me, attached you'll find a saved game. It's a test map I've often used; here you have navigation but not magnetism. Take that galley and that caravel out for a spin in the world's oceans - don't worry they won't sink. I've mapped large portions of the world with just caravels after discovering navigation.

By the way, the fact that I even have to defend the AIs actions in this particular area shows that none of you are equipped to criticize any part of Civ3. If you don't know about this fairly well-documented aspect of the game, what ELSE don't you know?

2: The AI can see ALL your units, and maybe even your city improvements. (Haven't you wondered why your FP gets nuked?)
The units bits is unquestionable IMHO, since they always attack your less defended city, even if it's out of their LoS.

This is true, although the problem is a bit exaggerated. I have never, ever seen the AI beeline for my least defended city regardless of its location in my empire, and I've fought plenty of single-front wars where cities away from the war were lightly defended.

[edit: I want to clarify the above. While I have not seen the AI take the bulk of its force through my defenses and across my empire to get at lightly guarded cities, I HAVE seen it use transports to land troops in areas away from the front. This is hardly a cheat however, it's just good tactics and something a human opponent would do even without knowledge of what cities were well defended and what one weren't.]

What I HAVE seen, is that the AI will not try to take a city if the odds are heavily against it. If you have four cities on your border with the enemy and all but one are impenetrable the AI will attempt to capture the more vulnerable one. This is lopsided because the human player can't gauge enemy defenses in cities if he doesn't have a spy in the civilization. However, it's preferable to the alternative we saw in Civ2 where the AI would send 50 units to their deaths trying to take the closest city when a much more easily capturable city was right next to it.

3: The AI trades a lot among them, but ask you for an arm and a leg for any stupid luxurie. (Oh, Caesar feels insulted since I offer him 3 luxuries plus rubber for his furs )

For all difficulty levels the AI values the commodities of other AI players more than the value of the commodities of the human player. However, as mentioned in an above thread, this is adjustable in the editor.

Also, as far as luxuries are concerned, you can't trade straight across if your civ is bigger. I'm not sure what "bigger" means exactly, but it's probably based upon population size, total culture, or some combination of the two. By the way, I have been in situations where I've been able to take advantage of this, gaining more resources than I gave away because I was smaller.

4: I don't think AI is affected by reputation hits. If they were, everyone would be constantly at war with everyone, and they would offer you better deals.

Without actually looking at the code, this can't be verified one way or the other. The only evidence either way is going to be anecdotal in nature. My experience tells me the AI is effected by reputation hits.

5: The AI has less corruption, even on Regent. Optimal number of cities is equal in Chieftain, 90% for you in Regent and 70% in Deity.

Yep. Again adjustable in the editor if you're so inclined.

I can't tell about any other cheats, but there are possibly more than this.

I can give you one HUMAN cheat, if you like. A human player is much more likely than an AI player to use a leader to rush a wonder. This is quite verifiable in 1.17 and below using the multi.sav exploit.

Don't forget to check ocean-going galleys, below:

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by Kilroy


In that case, OMG THE HUMAN CHEATS TOO WTH. FOR THE LAST TIME AFTER YOU GET NAVIGATION CARAVELS AND GALLEYS CAN GO IN OCEANS. If you don't believe me, attached you'll find a saved game. It's a test map I've often used; here you have navigation but not magnetism. Take that galley and that caravel out for a spin in the world's oceans - don't worry they won't sink. I've mapped large portions of the world with just caravels after discovering navigation.

By the way, the fact that I even have to defend the AIs actions in this particular area shows that none of you are equipped to criticize any part of Civ3. If you don't know about this fairly well-documented aspect of the game, what ELSE don't you know?


Oh, well, you think you are VERY clever... we don't know that well-documented aspect of the game oooooooooh. If you look at the civilopedia, you'll CLEARLY see that galleys can never safely go to an ocean square. Navigations allows Caravels (caravels, not galleys) to go safely through ocean. Oh,I see, it's a well documented aspect of the game, why should I doubt it...

Anyway, I need to do a very small correction: it's not the game the one who cheats on us. It's the Civilopedia Galleys actually can cross ocean after navigation... yes, you are a lucky guy who probably found it out by accident. Happy now??



This is true, although the problem is a bit exaggerated. I have never, ever seen the AI beeline for my least defended city regardless of its location in my empire, and I've fought plenty of single-front wars where cities away from the war were lightly defended.

[edit: I want to clarify the above. While I have not seen the AI take the bulk of its force through my defenses and across my empire to get at lightly guarded cities, I HAVE seen it use transports to land troops in areas away from the front. This is hardly a cheat however, it's just good tactics and something a human opponent would do even without knowledge of what cities were well defended and what one weren't.]

What I HAVE seen, is that the AI will not try to take a city if the odds are heavily against it. If you have four cities on your border with the enemy and all but one are impenetrable the AI will attempt to capture the more vulnerable one. This is lopsided because the human player can't gauge enemy defenses in cities if he doesn't have a spy in the civilization. However, it's preferable to the alternative we saw in Civ2 where the AI would send 50 units to their deaths trying to take the closest city when a much more easily capturable city was right next to it.


What a magnificient player...
If you have never seen AI troops unload next to your less defended city, you are, again, a lucky player. And yes OF COURSE I've had a lot of defenseless cities while at war. You know why??

Come on, even you can realize it...

Because the AI can't simply go to the heart of my empire w/o having a millions units killed by my defenses!!!! even the AI knows that, so it only attacks peripheral (is that right, english speaking floks?) cities with very little garrison...and it does so because it knows were all your units are.

And you really thinks that's a good tactic??? it's just an annoying way of suiciding their troops, since I can always pick some units to kick those defense-low units before they can even say "hello". But hey!! you are free to think that's not an useless and annoying cheat but a great tactic


For all difficulty levels the AI values the commodities of other AI players more than the value of the commodities of the human player. However, as mentioned in an above thread, this is adjustable in the editor.

Also, as far as luxuries are concerned, you can't trade straight across if your civ is bigger. I'm not sure what "bigger" means exactly, but it's probably based upon population size, total culture, or some combination of the two. By the way, I have been in situations where I've been able to take advantage of this, gaining more resources than I gave away because I was smaller.


Oh, yes, but Rome should give me a luxury and a modest amount of gold for RUBBER! come on, think, you can do it... no rubber...no infantry... no tanks I thinks... Good Lord, that's worth a luxury!!. Specially when the other part offers you another THREE luxuries!! Caesar should have to invite me to a beer, too. But no, he feels insulted by my greed. BTW my reputation is spotless. I've never broken a deal AFAICT.


Without actually looking at the code, this can't be verified one way or the other. The only evidence either way is going to be anecdotal in nature. My experience tells me the AI is effected by reputation hits.


Mmmmm. But sure it's not the same as for you. If I did all the backstabbing they do, everyone would gang up on me. Sure, you get the Message "Elizabeth is a known liar and cheat"... Ok, what's the game effect.


I can give you one HUMAN cheat, if you like. A human player is much more likely than an AI player to use a leader to rush a wonder. This is quite verifiable in 1.17 and below using the multi.sav exploit.


CHEAT????? Hello????!!!! you call that a cheat???!! Oh, never mind. I assume your brain got fused.

Hope you think about what your wrote

 

[Ragincajun]

Evincar: Actually, I happen to agree with Kilroy on nearly every aspect of this. I generally play one level below Deity for enjoyment, as I find the AI advantages(not cheats..advantages) at deity make the game less enjoyable for me.

I very very rarely see the AI use a leader for anything except an Army, and I have traded Electronics to civs I know have just received a leader, and they havent used it. Most short beats on wonders are due to cascading production, as someone else mentioned..this can also be used AGAINST the AI, by switching the city with the lead production to the LAST wonder in the list, building it first..and working backwards on them, when there are multiple wonders being built..thats the way I usually build Theory of Evolution and Copernicus...by switching off Bachs or Leonardo's to finish it first..then starting a new city building that I often still finish it first. The AI does attempt to beat you, and does know how fast you are building it...but it can only maximize production so much.

Ocean going galleys...known about that myself since I started playing..the Civilopedia is rife with errors, and changes that have been made in the upgrades havent always made it in.

Someone's complaint that the AI got an Army without ever fighting....depending on which patch you are using, ARMIES can be gained from HUTS...so you can have that situation, no cheat there.

Most of this entire thread, I have to agree with Kilroy about...folks are complaining about things they dont understand, calling them cheats....AI advantages arent cheats. AND...for those folks who referred to the situation and problems of making a really intelligent AI...the smartest AI would emulate the player and really dampen all your moods, by LOADING SAVED GAME..I really wish this game had the Iron Man feature of AC, that rocked.

So..you dont like AI advantages..play a lower difficulty level...you want an even bigger advantage, modify your bic to the point necessary to stroke your ego with how good you are...but save us the pointless rants on cheating AI .

 

[Sullla]

Well said, Ragincajun!

 

[Evincar]

...or you are reading what you want to.

On the leaders bit: All I'm saying is...sorry, all I'm trying to say (and either I'm not succescing at it or you are not willing to understand it and you prefer to deliberately misunderstand my words) is...:

And what if the A.I is dumb and doesn't use leaders to rush wonders!!! No, hell, it's not an HUMAN cheat!!! but you Ragincajun are talking about things I never ever complained about (and, seemingly, you are mainly replying me). Do it if you feel like it, but don't expect me to enter that discussion...

On marvelous Galleys: if this is happening because of a patch...OK, but think it wasn't in the readme...and I'm no warlock to figure out that had been changed.

"AI advantages are not cheats, just advantages": Bla bla bla... If you want to twist the language, this is Democracy, so you can do it. However, seeing your units in the fog of war is CHEATING, IMO. Notice that I've never talked about production bonus as cheats!!. Well, maybe others did, but not me

Finally, I dislike cheating, but if it's the only known way to make a decent AI...ok, we'll live with it. But I'd love to see an smarter AI, with less bonuses and NO cheats.

 

[Kilroy]

Originally posted by Evincar

Finally, I dislike cheating, but if it's the only known way to make a decent AI...ok, we'll live with it.

This is your first relevant and worthwhile contribution to this thread. As for the "human cheat," it's a figure of speech. Obviously the player isn't breaking any rules, but the fact that a human makes better use of his leaders is a huge advantage over the AI.