Right, but we are talking about Civ4 here, aren't we?Smidlee said:Well, you could make the same argument that Civ3 complete wasn't finished as it has something unfixed and unbalanced.
Commander Bello said:I am a little bit surprised that we don't hear anything anymore from the defenders, as soon as some facts from the game are put on the table.
I understand that it may be easier to counter a general statement "the game wasn't finished" with a similarily general statement "oh yes, it was!".
I'd guess that Urederra, King Flevance, some others and myself have put quite some valid arguments on the table. If we actually were wrong, I would have assumed the supporters of game and company to happily jump onto our errors. Since they obviously don't, I have to assume that our argumentation is valid.
shinah said:Heheh, that was what I was going to post, that I suspected the NDA had something to do with it. I wasn't sure if this only covered the actual time during beta test, but also after it, but apparently it does.
Commander Bello said:I'd guess that Urederra, King Flevance, some others and myself have put quite some valid arguments on the table. If we actually were wrong, I would have assumed the supporters of game and company to happily jump onto our errors. Since they obviously don't, I have to assume that our argumentation is valid.
Commander Bello said:I am a little bit surprised that we don't hear anything anymore from the defenders, as soon as some facts from the game are put on the table.
I understand that it may be easier to counter a general statement "the game wasn't finished" with a similarily general statement "oh yes, it was!".
I'd guess that Urederra, King Flevance, some others and myself have put quite some valid arguments on the table. If we actually were wrong, I would have assumed the supporters of game and company to happily jump onto our errors. Since they obviously don't, I have to assume that our argumentation is valid.
Nice attempt to drop something and then run away in despairCatcher said:I'll reinforce what Sulla said with the additional comment that many of us have lives to live outside of bickering on Forums. Thus, like him this will be the last time I'll be posting on this thread as well since I get enough of beating my head against concrete walls at home with my two year old and five month old (and at least they're cuter than Flevance and Bello ). It will also be pretty general, not because I'm some beta tester with an NDA, just someone who can actually look at THE WHOLE GAME and say, "They did a pretty good job on this."
Except that there are no promotions for air units.Catcher said:I love how the malcontent contingent ignores the value of the Promotion System. So what if it allows you to make your own 'TOW Infantry' with Ambush, or 'Scout Cars' with Sentry, or 'MASH Units' with Explorers and Medic, or 'Royal Marines' with Redcoats and Amphibious or... Even with the vanilla promotions, the possibilities for some suprisingly effective combinations are so great, I can't imagine having enough time to complain that The Great Wall isn't in (even though there's another Wonder that performs the equivalent funtion).
Ok.. so you are looking at the whole game, as you stated, and you just miss that air and naval warfare may only cover "60 years in human history" (around 100 years, when I count it for air warfare and much more for naval warfare) but some good 150 - 200 turns in the game?Catcher said:[... excluded the part about the civics and the conspiration theory, as this doesn't regard to my statements] The suggestion that Firaxis should have just kept working until all these concepts were working is spurrious since some may have been discarded years ago, not just recently. It seems even more petty when you consider that most of the complaints center around air and later naval combat: both encompassing only 60 years in actual history (~1% of recorded human history). As a programmer, I'm often asked to make changes and improvements to projects. However, if this improvement is only beneficial to a few users but is either detrimental to the majority of others or might keep the project delayed too long, it is set aside for future consideration. This isn't conspiracy, nor does it make the final project 'unfinished'; it's simply the reality of limited resources and limited time for any business.
The compliment about the tunnel vision may very well hit yourself. A mine of an oil well in the concept of the game is that powerful to provide a whole empire for its whole history with certain ressources. And you are nitpicking about the size of a mine in the real world?Catcher said:I know, in the end, we'll have to agree to disagree. I just have a hard time with people whose tunnel vision on particular items (like naval bombardment, cutting trade versus going to war, or limited air combat) keep them from either acknowledging or enjoying that there are perfectly rational explinations for such (farms/mines too decentralized versus city, tells you on the screen why AI will/won't do something, land-based units have a more logical intercept algorithm) or enjoying the far richer game we have even for warmongers with Promotions, Civics, Cultural defenses, etc. If you can't accept this, then you're likely to find that your gaming options are getting as narrow as your vision.
Commander Bello said:Obviously, you like the game in its current state. This is fine with me.
Obviously as well, you haven't got the concept at all.
So, please go on headbanging with your children, they seem to be a more appropriate partner for you than others here.
Lord Olleus said:Combat has been dumbed down? Are you a complete idiot?
Armorydave said:That or they got bored arguing about something that can never be proven.
If the expansion had been called Civ 4: Diplomats, some people would be complaining that the diplomacy system was not complete. If it had been called Civ 4: Astronauts and added new space items or mechanincs, they would have said the modern era was not completed. Civ 4: Religion, they released an incomplete religion system!
Urederra said:OK, I have played CIV iV for some time, not as much as many people in these forums though, but I have also read many posts in these forums and my impression is that they sold us a game which is not finished yet.
I am not talking about bugs and the lack of throne chamber or palace view. I am talking about that one key feature of the series was INTENTIONALLY left unfinished. The warmongering.
If you look carefully you'll notice that. Here are some clues, I am sure that warmongers who played more than me can add some points to this list
- Domination victories are usually more difficult than cultural or space race victories.
- Many unit types are missing. Particularly siege weapons. You'll keep playing with catapults forever, until you upgrade them to cannons. Trebuchets are obviously missing in the game. But is not only that ones, there is only one type of missiles.
- Naval and air warfare is dumbed down. There are also very few types of naval wessels.
- Fewer world wonders to help the warmongering. No Great wall, no Leonardo's workshop (BTW, did it really exist in first place?)
- As Tr1cky pointed out, (I think It was him) there is a always war option which is umplayable in many circumstances due to the war weariness.
- EDIT: Added from post #17. GREAT LEADERS. One of the most succesful additions of Civ III, great leaders, is missing in CIV IV. How could they add great prophets, great artists, great scientists and great engineers and leave the original great leaders out?
You can add more points if you like, but I think you'll get the message.
The point is that they INTENTIONALLY left all those things out. Why? to sell the expansion. As Jesse Smith confessed in gamespot:
Bolding is mine. So, in my opinion, they sold an unfinished game. It is true that you can enjoy the game, have some cultural, space race or even domination victories, but, compared to the other iterations of the series, the game is not completed. It will be when they release Warlords.
So, if you don't like threads with critism, don't read them.homersheineken said:[...]
So if you don't like the game, don't play it. Return it, and move on. if it's too late to return it, then you aren't smart enough to figure that out in time.
Now, this is really a good one....homersheineken said:The game is one of the best strategy games ever created.
No, he isn't. He is stating facts which are hard to refute.homersheineken said:You're whining like the company didn't personally contact you and ask what was most important to you. Grow up. [bla bla bla deleted]