This game discriminates against Atheists!

[Eran of Arcadia]

My short answer is that God isn't the source of morality, he just knows what it is better than us.

 

[dh_epic]

Hey, does anyone know when Civilization 4 is coming out?

I've heard they're going to include a new "religion" feature.

 

[Chose]

OT:

Exodus 21:7-11: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Genesis 16:1-2: "Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai."

NT:
Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."


slavery ok? check
SEXUAL slavery ok? check
rape ok? check

you were saying?

edit: sorry I had to add this one-
Exodus 21:20-21: "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." - very nice.

for starters, the one about abram for one you cant know if it was rape. And after God was mad at abram for doing it. so God says it was wrong.

The Exodus one was for a different time, that is why its "OLD"(but i was wrong about that).

the Exodus 21:20-21 yeah its brutal.

the Leviticus one, God was punnishing the land of the cannonites for there sins against him, and it does not say they were sex slaves.

All of those are for a diffent time and that is why they are in the old testament, If you believe the bible you believe is is in control and there is a reason why slavery was alowed.


the matthew 18 25 is taken out of context, this slave who owed his master 10,000 talents did not want to play, so he was disobeying, the point here his to obey your masters or you will be punished, but the mastor forgave his sevent for not paying, so the point is to forgive.

We dont have slaves and masters now so you have to apply it to your life, You must obey your boss.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Also note: OT law allowed things that were later said to be wrong (ie divorce) specifically because of the weakness of the people.
The fact that it was partially a Civil law means that not every immoral thing was punished, it doesn't mean they were encouraged though.

 

[Chose]

In addition to all this is the overarching issue of "right" and "wrong". Christians - well, most theists - will tell you that god is the source of morality. It is god, and not man, who has decreed what is good and what is evil.

This position presents several major problems, not the least of which is that morality because unintelligible.

For instance, ask a Christian this question: "If morality comes from god, then if god decided raping children was good, it would be good. Do you agree?"

(apologies for the bluntness of the comment, but it needs to be repulsive to prove the point)

What response are you likely to get?
What's problematic about this reponse?

Here is the thing with how chiristains see God, He does not just "decided" stuff, He knows everything. God cant sin, or lie, so anything he has already said is final.

God says children are a blessing from him. He says anyone who causes childern to sin, or shows him how to, that it is better from him to die. So it is VERY clear God does not want us to rape children so he could never change now because the bible says God is unchanging

So God COULD NOT say raping children is good, so i dont even have to think about him saying that.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Actually on the slavery issue, Everyone knows Slavery is a Good thing (and it is widely practiced by most people on this forum... just check the strategy sections)

There is some debate about whether genocide is good, it largely depends on how much money you have.. generally genocide is better the poorer you are...of course it also depends on what you want. This also holds for looting, pillaging, and whatever goes along with that. There are some people here that base their whole ability to continue existing on stuff they loot.

Of course imprisoning those who disagree with you is difficult, so its not always ideal, but sometimes it is a recomended strategy.

Denying food to the hungry is considered a waste if those people serve you, but has a few limited times its useful... generally slavery is better. Its actually considered a boon if you can deny food to hungry people that refuse to serve you.


[and the short answer is Yes...long one includes concepts of immutability and deciding. If studies showed that people become more well adjusted and feel good after being beaten up at random times by random people, would you start doing that?]

 

[viz]

Chose, there are PLENTY more examples of all of the subjects I mention in my post, the ones lateralis gave only scratch the surface but he was making a point, and a valid one at that, we aren't plucking these out of thin air, they are in black and white for all to see. The atrocities mentioned in the bible (including the countless mass-murders directly commanded by your God, including the murder of men, women, children and animals - just about everything that has a life he has killed at some point) could fill a book all on there own, hold on a minute I forgot - the bible IS that book.

Rape and Sexual Slavery - "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

God Orders The Killing of Men, Women and Children - "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills First Borns - "And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died." (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Killing Children - "I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted." (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Killing of Children - "Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes." (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

God Orders Genocide - "Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction" (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

As I said, there is TONS more like this in the book, if you read it you would know...

Here is the thing with how chiristains see God, He does not just "decided" stuff, He knows everything. God cant sin, or lie, so anything he has already said is final.

Yep, you said it, gods word in final, he knows everything - even though he can't make his mind up and contradicts himself left, right and center. If god is perfect and knows everything why did he create imperfect humans and leave those imperfect humans to record and teach 'his word', full of errors, language translations, anonymous authors and glaring contradictions? He knew this would happen, he knew people would suffer and be killed, he knew people would disobey him, he therefore wanted it to happen. Why does he banish people to hell for ETERNITY after watching them sin for a mere mortals lifetime? Hardy a proportional punishment is it now?

God Is Everywhere Present - "Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me" (Ps 139:7-10)

God Is Not Everywhere Present - "Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether " (Gen 3:8)

God Lies - "Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false" (2 Thes 2:11)

God Puts Lies Into People Mouths - "Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you" (1 Kings 22:23)

God Decieves - "And if the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." (Ezek 14:9)

As I said these quotes are throughout the bible, everyone should know about them and they should not be rebuffed or watered down, they mean what they say or they would be worded differently, they spent hundreds of years refining it so you can't just dismiss parts as being 'old' or 'it happened in the past', 'it was ok/the right thing to do then', if you where to ask the pope I'm sure he'll tell you what you can and can't dismiss, it's all still being taught TODAY by fundimentalists across the globe , and there is a 'hell' of a lot more in there (pun intended)

Do you think an all knowing god would be happy to know that people dismiss his word and only take the bits they approve of? That defeats the whole point of religion.

 

[SkippyT]

Nobody is an atheist
Even though "atheists" have convinsed themselves that they are, they´re not!

 

[Kieran]

As I said these quotes are throughout the bible, everyone should know about them and they should not be rebuffed or watered down, they mean what they say or they would be worded differently, they spent hundreds of years refining it so you can't just dismiss parts as being 'old' or 'it happened in the past', 'it was ok/the right thing to do then', if you where to ask the pope I'm sure he'll tell you what you can and can't dismiss, it's all still being taught TODAY by fundimentalists across the globe , and there is a 'hell' of a lot more in there (pun intended)

Do you think an all knowing god would be happy to know that people dismiss his word and only take the bits they approve of? That defeats the whole point of religion.

There are plenty of religions other than Judaism and Christianity you know. You are atheist because you don't like biblebashing christians and their hypocracy.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

You know viz, some of the examples of slaughter are of God speaking figuratively, as are some of the examples of contradictions. But then, I do agree that the Bible is full of contradictions - that's because I view it as more of a library than a single book.

And yes, the alternatives aren't just a literal interpretation of the Bible, or no God at all. Even if one can't bring oneself to view the Bible as imperfect but containing truth (which is what i do), there are other religions.

 

[lateralis]

for starters, the one about abram for one you cant know if it was rape. And after God was mad at abram for doing it. so God says it was wrong.

The Exodus one was for a different time, that is why its "OLD"(but i was wrong about that).

the Exodus 21:20-21 yeah its brutal.

the Leviticus one, God was punnishing the land of the cannonites for there sins against him, and it does not say they were sex slaves.

All of those are for a diffent time and that is why they are in the old testament, If you believe the bible you believe is is in control and there is a reason why slavery was alowed.


the matthew 18 25 is taken out of context, this slave who owed his master 10,000 talents did not want to play, so he was disobeying, the point here his to obey your masters or you will be punished, but the mastor forgave his sevent for not paying, so the point is to forgive.

We dont have slaves and masters now so you have to apply it to your life, You must obey your boss.

yeah but the point i was rebuffing said that god CONDEMNED all these things. putting forth a set of rules to mitigate their practice is not exactly condemning. I don't see something in there that says "and then god said unto moses 'slavery is an abomination against my divine will, but you humans are a feisty lot and I see you're not giving up without a fight. as long as your gonna keep enslaving people, here how to do it RIGHT."

and see viz's excellent post as well. either god is a dick, or he's god.

 

[surdanis]

consider that science actually grew out of some theistic beliefs. the greeks and the romans all philosophers who postulated about the origins of the universe without the need of god, but they certainly incorporated ingredients of a world that existed with gods into their theories! consider also the revival of civilization that began in the dark and middle ages. remember that the centers of learning were, in fact, monastaries, and that the first universities were actually schools for the clergy.

but, yes, modern science grew out of a particular strain of philosophy known as empiricism, which says that what is true is only what can be proven via the senses, as a reaction to rationalism, which says that the human mind, by itself, is perfectly capable of using reason to explain the universe. before empiricism, philosophers were all basically rationalists; and many of them were devout christians who used philosophy to prove the existence of God.

however, early philosophers and scientists were not godless, though it is true that during the Age of Enlightenment, there was a favoritism for atheism or "semi-atheism" because of the philosophy of empiricism, which flourished during this period. it gave birth to the new philosophy of science, from which modern chemistry, biology, and physics, have its roots. many thinkers claimed deism as their "religion," which postulated that god was more of a creator and had little to no interference in the daily affairs of Man.

so, in retrospect, religion can inspire men to make advances in science--at least in the early stages of a society's development. in game terms, this means science should be increased if the civ is in the middle ages (if we follow history), because once the rennaissance hits, the advantages of a religion waver; it is at that point that humanism is discovered, which is philosophy centered upon Man or the earthly existence (vice religious philosophy, which is preoccupied with the hereafter and our ultimate end).

but then we might consider that it should also depend on the religion. history suggests that only religions that espouse individualism and the question of the individual's character will promote science and advancement. as such, we will find judaism, christianity, and islam at the forefront--confucianism and daoism not so much, maybe even penalizing a civ's scientific progress. perhaps hinduism and buddhism would be in between.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

Here is the thing with how chiristains see God, He does not just "decided" stuff, He knows everything. God cant sin, or lie, so anything he has already said is final.

That's not consistent with the bible, though. God does indeed change his mind. God does indeed reconsider. The story of Job alone shows that god can be persuaded.

God says children are a blessing from him. He says anyone who causes childern to sin, or shows him how to, that it is better from him to die. So it is VERY clear God does not want us to rape children so he could never change now because the bible says God is unchanging

As above - god does, indeed, change his mind. In fact, one need only compare the OT and NT characterizations of god to see how he is portrayed much differently. I have never seen this disputed by a bible scholar.

God "tested" Jacob. Was this not a "lie"? (if not deception?)

So God COULD NOT say raping children is good, so i dont even have to think about him saying that.

You cannot say that. If so you are imposing constraints on god. But even if you stick to this reasoning, you are avoiding the base issue - that something is good or bad because god deems it to be. Meaning that there is no external measure of good/evil.

Have to run to a meeting...more to say later...

 

[Wyz_sub10]

Nobody is an atheist
Even though "atheists" have convinsed themselves that they are, they´re not!

Yeah...we are.

Nothing personal, but this is such a ridiculous comment. I've heard it time and again - let me guess: we're not really atheists because we deny god, therefore we must believe he exists, right?

Atheists do not believe god exists. Period. It's that simple.

Your (alledged) logic would imply that Santa Claus really exists simply because most adults believe he does not. Same for ghosts or leperchauns or monsters under the bed.

If I've miscontrued your position, I apologize. Feel free to clarify.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The way I see it, what is good is what produces the greatest benefit for the greatest number of people. The reason that God has a greater understanding of morality than us isn't because He creates morality, but because he has a much better idea of what "good" is - He actually knows all the consequences, temporary or eternal, of any given act. Thus He may give specific instructions at specific times, but generally He just gives us principles to follow that will usually create the greatest benefit.

 

[Kieran]

Yeah...we are.

Nothing personal, but this is such a ridiculous comment. I've heard it time and again - let me guess: we're not really atheists because we deny god, therefore we must believe he exists, right?

Atheists do not believe god exists. Period. It's that simple.

Your (alledged) logic would imply that Santa Claus really exists simply because most adults believe he does not. Same for ghosts or leperchauns or monsters under the bed.

If I've miscontrued your position, I apologize. Feel free to clarify.

If you are atheist, what would you be thinking about if you were onboard an airplane crashing towards the ground? Would you begin praying to?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

If I were an atheist, as I was about to die I wouldn't be praying "just in case", I would just be thinking that, okay, it's been nice to be alive but now my time is up. I am a Christian and all but I see nothing unusual about atheism. I would be one myself except I believe in God - not as a default but because I genuinely feel that He has revealed Himself, in some way, to me.

 

[lateralis]

If you are atheist, what would you be thinking about if you were onboard an airplane crashing towards the ground?

oh ****?

It's been fun?

what purpose does praying in this situation serve? "dear god, please change the laws of physics for me, your humble servant"?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

"Dear God, I have always doubted your existence but just in case, I need a huge favor"?

There is a problem, I think, that theists and atheists often completely fail to understand each other.

 

[warpus]

And even if you began praying, would you give a prayer to all the Gods people believe in/have believed in? Cuz you know, if God really exists, and you pray to the wrong one, it won't help you at all.